Not all of us agree that porn is harmful.
-Sven, girl, porn user, willing to debate you in an appropriate thread.
Porn is a good thing. Of course some do not realize that porn is to be used topically and not taken internally.
I’m no expert on her work, but I get really peeved when anyone who has never met me tells me she knows what’s good for me better than I do. You don’t have to be a man to behave patriarchally. And I happen to enjoy sex with men very much, thank you; if she didn’t, that’s not my problem - and don’t make it my problem.
Oh my.
If Bubba had done a Denny’s waitress at a Motel 6, I wouldn’t have given a hoot.
Monica was a subordinate employee.
They did it in the office.
Neither is appropriate for an executive. The issues are multifold and involve leadership, credibility, abuse of power and perception. These things do matter for a head of state as well as the head of a Fortune 500 company (no pun intended).
I think her subsequent disdain of him is a good indicator. But it is beside the point. The sexual (ab)use of subordinate employees is damaging to the workplace morale in general. It is inappropriate, even if the subordinate consents.
She wasn’t abused, she was the aggressor.
She was into it. She didn’t really work directly for him. there was no harrassment. I personally don’t care that they did it in his office. I don’t see any exploitation there, sorry.
You are certainly free to disagree.
I just think that if Ken Lay had been serviced by a summer intern for the Enron marketing department in his office while on a board conference call, the feminists would be holding a million uterus march in Texas.
When I started the thread I didn’t know who she was. Now that I’ve read it, I’m happy she’s dead. To be fair, I am happy the pope is dead too, and I liked him, but I feel that when an ideologue dies and becomes a meme rather than a person exacting their agendas, we can move on to new social ideas more easily. I’m glad to see a lot of the old guard going away.
I dated a woman who wouldn’t tell me her age because she didn’t want to be pigeonholed into age categorization, but I know she was at least 5 years my senior. She was very much on the feminist rage tip, and we had some nasty, even violent confrontations. I felt the whole patriarchal guilt thing to a certain degree because of difficult relations with women my entire life, but one thing she said to me caused sort of an epiphany. She told me that guys my age seem to have a lot fewer preconceptions as to what a woman “should be” than guys even ten years older than me. (I’m 27) So I realized at that point that I wasn’t actually guilty of all the things they were railing against, or at least was so to a lesser degree. So I am glad when people stuck in that old 50s Patriarchy paradigm take their leave of this world, because I’m kind of tired of living in the shadow of a world I don’t admire either, and being expected to apologize for it simply because I am male. Certainly I have mistreated women, no doubt about it, as I have been mistreated by women, but I think at this point I attribute it more to being “f***ed up angry little kids” than I do to some titanic struggle of men against women. In my personal culture men and women work together and oftentimes women get bowled over not because men don’t value their opinions, but because they are timid and don’t speak up. I personally prefer it when women take on some leadership roles, after I’ve had some experience working on projects that were male dominated then seen it balanced out by women when they step up.
So I think her world is done, it’s a new one, it resembles her world for certain, but if I am part of a patriarchy, it certainly isn’t the same one she was fighting, and she probably helped bring my world about, to which I am grateful, but as of now, I am happy she is dead, and it is symbolic of an end to a lot of that feminine hatred for men, something I see less and less than I used to. Growing up with a step-mother who DESPISED men, I’m happy to see it go.
Erek
Is there anyone in the world that can’t be considered subordinate to the president for purposes of sexual harassment? The potential for abuse of power can apply to anyone. Personally I like the idea of a sexy president getting hummers in the oval office.
Erek
<rimshot>
If you were a female co-worker of the server who then had to endure the demeaning atmosphere such workplace activities create, you might feel quite differently.
What’s even stranger is that she was a lesbian, but spend the last years of her life married…to a man. (A gay man, btw!)
And her biggest inspiration? Her father. She had some serious issues, and yes, I’ve read some of her stuff. (Not her books, mostly essays and the like).
The ONE thing though, that she did say that makes sense to me was, when people talk about women being raped, someone mentions, “Well, men get abused too! Men are raped, not as often, but it happens.” She pointed out that equality shouldn’t mean that everyone gets assraped.
wonderwench, if you want to bitch about Clinton, start a new thread, por favor.
I think it was wrong, but it’s nothing comparable to Clarence Thomas. Clinton and Lewinsky had a consensual affair. There was nothing consensual about Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill’s relationship.
As a fellow liberal, I gotta call you on this. I doesn’t bother you, even a BIT?
It bothers me for at least 3 reasons:
(1) It’s just plain wrong. He was married, and much older than her, and in a position of authority
(2) It shows a lack of good judgment and self control. MAYBE none of that lack carries over into his governing. But maybe not
(3) If it comes out, it will severely interfere with his ability to govern effectively. Which, in fact, it did. And you could certainly argue that without Monica, Gore would have won in 2000, which of course would mean that by now, all the residents of the world would be joining hands and singing on grassy hillsides.
Even IF your hyperbolic claim is correct, well, what does that prove? That liberals are partisan? Oh, the horror! Why, I bet that conservative christians would be more outwardly and demonstrably outraged at scandals among democrats than among republicans!! My lord, these people might compromise principles for political expediency! Why, our entire system is built on such rank hypocrisy! The horror!
We’re still talking about the president. This doesn’t really address what I said in any way.
Reading her obituary this morning, I got a bit of a stiffy…
When’s her idiot brother Ronald going to cark it?
I have read her work and although I didn’t always agree with what she was saying, I always admired her intellect and writing ability. Her work really energized me to consider the issues and debates in feminism and reach my own conclusions and find my own boundaries.
From www.telegraph.co.uk:
“I have a really strong belief that any movement needs both radicals and liberals,” she explained. “You always need women who can walk into the room in the right way, talk in the right tone of voice, who have access to power. But you also need a bottom line.”
From the Associated Press:
Dworkin said repeatedly that she did not hate men, just the subjugation of women.
I don’t know if you’re joking, but I’m pretty sure Ronald Dworkin is no relation to Andrea.