Connor wasn’t able to be born of normal means. Darla had to stake herself so that Connor could be born. A very gripping scene when you first see it.
Also Cordy as a “higher being” saw everything both of them did- yet she did not she what Angelus did with the Demon other then in cryptic flashbacks. Maybe that was taken away when she re-appeared. Do we have any non-spoiler proof as to why she returned?
Also, Gunn had more upside in the past. It seems he gets less lines and plot points other then the jealous boyfriend angle. Wesley is the tough human with connections, Lorne is the comic relief, what’s Gunn’s role?
Still, this all maybe a ruse for some maternity leave. . .
I thought that it was a joke. Someone mentioned in a Buffy thread at the time that Joss wanted to include Jesse who was killed in the pilot in the credits as a joke but didn’t/couldn’t because of the costs associated with shooting dummy footage. They said the Tara credit was a reference back to that. Gotta say I like the “tribute and honor” explanation better.
Does everybody think I didn’t actually say who gets killed next week?
If you actually look at the spoiler box, you’ll see that “the answer lies within” it.
Clever! 
I’m no technician, but I’d imagine blocking all those scenes in the basement with the cage must be a bitch and a half. So cheers to Sean Astin, if that’s the case. Now if last week’s episode was Raiders of the Lost Ark/Last Crusade, this week’s was Silence of the Lambs. For some reason the episode also reminded me of Tabula Rasa, in the sense that everything’s going to interpersonal shit between the gang while there’s serious evil to be dealt with. But I’m probably stretching it.
I liked the scenes between Angelus and Connor. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but Connor seemed to have a unique effect on Angelus. It was nice how Angelus twisted Angel’s fantasy of the unified group by disclosing their nasty secrets. I really wonder if Lorne’s able to see anything that would help the gang.
The Tim, I like the way you think.
Well, now I’m confused. Was Angel lying about not knowing what was going on at the end of BTvS season two, then? He seemed not to have any idea why Buffy was about to kill him, suggesting to me at least that he couldn’t remember what Angelus had been doing.
elfkin Angel didn’t remember anything when he first got his soul back- in “Becoming, Pt. 1”, he is shown when the Gypsies first re-ensouled him, and one of the men says something to the effect of “It hurts, doesn’t it? … Your memories will return in time”- I guess the same was true when Willow re-re-ensouled him. He didn’t remember at first, probably the shock of suddenly having his soul stuffed back in, but later his memories did return, probably while he was in Hell.
elfkin477 right after the gypse curse hits Angel is confused and unable to remember what has been happening. Then memory returns all at once and he turns into a puddle of remorse and self pity.
Judith Prietht I also really liked the Connor/Angelus interaction. The look on Angelus’ face is one of genuine surprise. He didn’t see it comming at all and that was cool. I also want to see a Connor/Angelus fight. Despite him being annoying he has really cool fight scenes (the start of the episode where he is fighting the out of town vampires was cool).
I still think the Cordy is not the real Cordy. The real Cordy is still bored as heck.
Yep. Although daddy already beat him in every fight but one (Conner used the taser to win- back when electricity harmed Angel), so Angelus shouldn’t have much trouble with him.
Thanks!
See, I thought so too, but I think the general sense was one big “WHOOOSH”.
I’d like to see Hannibal Lector vs. Angelus. Restrain them both and lock them in a big maze, and see who lives. Then nuke the whole area.
Also, Q. Why is there a schizophrenic split between Angel/Angelus but not one between Evil!Spike and Whipped!Spike?
Or is there?
I think it’s because Spike earned his soul back, as opposed to Angelus, for whom it was a punishment.
-LA
I’m not sure what you mean by a “schizophrenic split.” Are you meaning perhaps multiple personality? Angel suffered and continues to suffer tremendous guilt and anguish over his acts as Angelus. They’re more distinct personae in large measure I think because of the amount of time since Angel was originally ensouled. The constant refrain that “Angel is not Angelus” strikes me as a coping mechanism, a way for Angel to deal with the enormity of the evil he perpetrated. He certainly understands that Angelus and he are the same being, with Angel’s soul acting as the ultimate check on the demon.
Spike’s been portrayed as perhaps having an easier time dealing with being ensouled based on some mitigating factors, not the least of which are he’s been getting mind-warped by TFE and he has the support of Buffy and to a lesser extent the Scoobies. We have definitely seen Spike struggle with his guilt over his past deeds on more than one occasion and if the series continues beyond this season (or if the character spins off) we’ll see more of that struggle. And of course Spike is currently still bug-shagging crazy.
I guess it’s because Spike and Angel were ‘made’ differently by their respective vampiric forces. Angelus does evil things because he enjoys doing evil things. Spike did evil things because he was a vampire, and thus enjoyed blood and death in the same way we enjoy food and music. I.E. He killed because he enjoyed killing. Angelus enjoyed being evil. When Angelus->Angel, everything he ‘lived’ for became vile and repellent to him.
Spike, OTOH, kicked his addiction to pain and death right after his attempted rape of Buffy. He went from enjoying the old in-out-in-out, ultra-violence, and * Passions * to just enjoying * Passions *.
BTW, I really hope the next episode of Angel begins with them performing the Chinese holy water torture on Angelus. Or possibly holy water enemas.
Of course, this requires us to ask, “Do vampires have anuses?”
(Propz for he who can identify both references in this post.)
As to the grave thing: they were digging in a cemetary, so there were tombstones. There may or may not have been a stone cross directly above where Gunn was digging. But I’m pretty sure now that it was Gunn digging. Doesn’t prove that he isn’t the one dying… but…
—Why is there a schizophrenic split between Angel/Angelus but not one between Evil!Spike and Whipped!Spike? —
Because Spike became basically good even without having a soul. The chip seems to have played a major part in behaviorly modifying him, but it was also his obsession with Buffy and subsequent desire to please her. But, bottom line, he was pretty close to a good guy before he even got his soul. As Dawn (paraphrase) says “soul, chip, what’s the difference?”
Even his rape attempt was more like what a human male would do, not a vampire: he needed the delusion that she wanted it. A real vampire wouldn’t need such a delusion to do that to someone, and a real vampire certainly wouldn’t have snapped out of it when the delusion was shattered by him realizing that he had actually hurt her.
More quesitonable were his actions when he thought the chip was disabled, and he tried to attack a woman. Yet, even THEN he was doing it because he was (quite amusingly) trying to prove to himself that he really was still evil, still important, because he was so mad at Buffy for considering him beneath her. Again, an ordinary vampire doesn’t need desperate psychological rationalizations to motivate their bad acts.
Obviously, he is a very different creature with a soul than without, but from the end of season 5 on, he was never an Angelus, and difference isn’t anywhere near large enough to make his soul/nosoul sides a split personality.
Another point…
Liam was a generally nasty character even before he became a vampire- note his leaving his friend to lie in the street when he was passed out drunk, and speaking of stealing his father’s silver. Not evil enough to commit murder, but definitely not a nice guy. He seems to have had less “human feeling” to begin with. So, when Darla came along, and sired him, it was a fairly easy transition from bad person to gleeful psychopathic killer. But, when he got his soul back, he was confronted with the guilt of multiple murders, not just of being a drunkard, theif and whoremonger. I really think Liam would have drawn the line at crimes of physical violence. Angelus delighted in finding new and interesting ways to torture and kill people.
William on the other hand, was a genuinely good man, even if he was a bloody awful poet and total wuss. Drusilla found him crying because he had been cruelly rejected by the woman he loved. Here was a gentle soul who was tormented by his peers, seeking some kind of beauty in life, seeking something… effulgent. And after Dru sired him, there was still quite a bit of the gentle, romantic lover left in him. EvilSpike had a sweet, caring side, where Angelus did not. Spike relished the kill, but in some ways, unless he was out strictly looking for a meal, the kill was secondary to the fight that led up to it. Angelus liked his victims to be helpless, Spike liked them to fight back, quite possibly because it was easier to justify killing someone who was trying to kill him back than killing a helpless victim.
I think the raw material had a lot to do with the final product.
Also, Angel seems not to have gone insane after being re-ensouled. Yeah, he was all tortured and guilty, but he seems to have had all his marbles- except in S3 when he had been tormented in Hell for hundreds of years, and he bounced back from that pretty quickly.
Spike went insane upon being re-ensouled, and I don’t think it was because of the First messin’ wit’ his head. I think the insanity was something the First took advantage of, but I’d bet real money that Spike was bug-shagging crazy before he crawled into the school basement.
Angel seems to have had an easier time integrating his soul with the rest of his psyche than Spike did. Which is kind of ironic, considering that Angel/Angelus seem to be polar opposites, while Soulless Spike/Soulful Spike are two points along a continuum.
Amber said at Toronto Trek: “I knew like in the middle - pretty much the middle to the end of Season 5 - that it was going to happen. In fact, Joss was really excited about it.”
I would appreciate a quote or cite about her being “thrilled” at being included in the credits. Steve DeKnight admitted that this was intended both as a goodbye present to Amber and to be “mischievous” to the fans.
And now back on topic…
I’ve been wondering what made Angelus such a good guy all of a sudden. Before he was vamped, he was hardly listening to his Superego. Then he got vamped and he was the Scourge Of Europe. So he gets his soul back and instead of being a drunken tomcatting gambling addict again, all of a sudden he’s Mother Theresa, brimming with compassion for humankind?
I know that even an irresponsible person is capable of guilt (especially when confronted with murder and hideous carnage), but re-ensouled Angel is better than Liam what’s-his-name ever was; more conscientious, more caring, more diligent.
How did that happen? When did that happen?
Here’s a thought: There are many impulses that pull at people. Love, hate, fear, etc. Among these forces are a) A soul, which inspires people to do good things, makes them guilty, etc., and a vampire spirit, which makes them enjoy death, pain, etc.
How you turn out when vamped depends on how your mind shifts when one vector is removed and another is added.
Angel was mostly neither good nor evil. BUT, that just means he was in balance, that his desire to rob and rape was held in check not merely by fear, but by guilt and by responsibility. Let him stew with a father who expects him to fail for a few years, and you get a strong conscience holding back strong devils. Add a literal devil to the mix, and remove the conscience, and you get a cheerful psychopath. Add the soul, and lots of guilt, and an inspiration, and you get Angel the champion. But, lose the guilt, and add more personal demons, and you can get Angel the lawyer-killing, Darla-igniting, Westley-smothering, jealous mofo.
Another thing about Angel is that he is the product of his enviornment. He was told by his father that he was a good-for-nothing drunken lout, so he became a good-for-nothing drunken lout. When presented as a cruel monster, he became one mofo of a cruel monster. He was back into equilibrium eating rats until Whistler got him to redeem himself with love.
Spike had no prior guilt to lose, and apparently a wimp of a demonic spirit. (At least, crosses, sunlight, etc seem to hurt him less then most vampires.) He did everything but what his enviornment wanted him to do. As a creature of the night, he did not stalk alleyways and flee mobs. He stalked mobs. Well, charged mobs. He was a free spirit as a poet, and remained one through vampirism. Most importantly, he loved. Angel never loved, not in knock-down, drag-out, become-Love’s-bitch that Spike did. We all remember the scene from Buffy with the haunted school where Angelus was horrified to have love in him.
So, in conclusion, Angel had the potential to be a killer in him before he was sired. Spike was a gentle soul. Accepting responsibility for doing evil that you always wanted to do but never actually did is surely not as bad as suddenly going from pure, guilt-free existence to A) feeling guilt for 2 lifetime’s worth of crimes that you never dreamt of commiting while souled, AND still having the impulse to hunt and kill.
I think it would be cool if Spike became a poet again. Actually, if suffering improves art, as many think it does, he should be bloody Shakespeare be now.