Okay, I’ve been following the TNT reruns trying to fill in some gaps and puzzle over season 4 (which I liked at the time). In spin the bottle, when Cordy is reawakened, the demon half of her self is also awakened, and unfortunately, it apparently has control.
I’m looking for theories on this whole thing – I remember thinking Cordy is not acting like herself the whole time I watched it, but since I missed Spin the Bottle first time around, I didn’t get this crucial piece of information. In addition, since the Powers that Be thought enough of her to let her help Angel before giving her a nice send off to never never land, what part do you think they played in the whole affair?
I’m just looking for some examination of motives and possible explanation for plots outside of the Real World intruding on the series. I’ve got a couple, but I’d like to examine other opinions before speaking mine – please, step up and postulate:
PS: Feel free to examine it in relation to current plot lines – since tonights episode was so – oh my my!
Shameless bump – at least someone point me to the threads for when it aired – there were so many layers of stuff going on in seasons 3 and 4 that will likely be involved in the final resolution that I thought some fan somewhere might want to discuss it here.
This is the only shameless bump – I will go back to my conspiracy theories involving WB and Fox and the Iraqi’s who are all in League with Al Qaida and how the Bush administration is covering it up. Kerry knows about it, but is too afraid to bring it up, because they’ll destroy his wife’s ketchup empire and leave him unable to fund his political career. Nader speaks out about it, but nobody seems to be listening – or is it the media showing their conservative/liberal bias in not reporting his thoughts on the whole matter?
All the so-called “reality” programming is being paid with Saudi money and graft from the food for oil program – the documentation is there, if we can just hack into Tenets brain (You have to catch him while he’s jacked in though and that’s hard because they hide their IP addresses behind several firewalls, and constantly rotate them so no one has the same address for more than 5 minutes at a time – which keeps them from downloading Porn and sharing files at the same time)
And what about those pictures of Colin Powell in leather pouring Ketchup on Saddam in prison? What is THAT all about?!?
It’s all there!!!
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket!?!/.
Unless they have something up their sleeves, I think they sort of botched the whole Powers That Be thing. For a bit, it was looking like the Powers really were behind the whole Jasmine plot: they were the good guys: but they were TOO good, and Team Angel forged a morally grey path against them. But in Season 5, it’s like we’re back to Square one again: apparently the powers that be aren’t the same powers behind Jasmine, and they’re just hunky dory wanting angel to go save ladies in distress. It was looking really cool for a bit, but now it’s back to same old, same old. Or so it seems.
Well, they said Jasminewas a Power that Be. She was a…roque…Power. She wasn’t part of their plans, but she was the one guiding the Gang to position them to the point that she could be born.
Huh? This entire season Angel has been working for the Senior Partners, not the Powers. Who wants Angel to go save Ladies in Distress? Angel certainly hasn’t been on any missions like in the past–with Cordelia gone nobody is passing out the assignments. The Senior Partners are pulling the strings now, and if ANgel is out saving Ladies in Distress it’s because, as Lindsay told Angel in ep 17, they want to distract him. Not because it’s necessarily the thing that needs to be done.
The only reference to the Powers this season was the return of Cordelia. They apparently owed her a favor for the whole Jasmine fiasco–they sent her one final vision and allowed her to save Angel. That’s it. Killing Jasmine and joining W&H probably effectively cut them off from the Powers permanently.
It seems to me that Jasmine was behind ALL of seasons 1 through 4, and that the Powers That Be were never all that interested in the AI team to begin with, or at least the only Power That Was that paid much attention was Jasmine. At present, I’m pinning on Jasmine everything that happened until her death – the birth of Conor, the trasnfer ofthe powers to Cordelia, everything. It was all her master plan – she was sort of a Big Bad so big that all the other Big Bads were just steps to her (Wolfram & Hart in Season 1, Drusilla and Darla in Season 2, Holtz in Season 3).
I agree, this is what it seems like to me – Cordy was obviously moved to a higher plane BEFORE she was ready for it. The Powers were obviously switched from Doyle to force her to need the half-demon, which would eventually take her over. So, then the question is: What about the rest of the PTB club? How do they actually feel about Angel and the apocalypse? Is there a real purpose behind this or were all the PTB that they took for granted as a force for good, just opponents of W&H, who are just as nasty and manipulative?
I found that whole season to be way too confusing. Apparently Cordelia wasn’t really taken off by the Powers that Be, it was all a ruse by Jasmine. And I suspect the whole thing got redone about six hundred times when the actress got pregnant. It was a botched season, that made no sense, and never got explained.
Leading to: Oh, let’s forget about the Powers-T-B (who were the motivators for the prior seasons) and focus on the Managing Partners as the big bads.
I suspect that the cancellation of the series is going to lead to another totally confusing and completely botched up set of finales.
[Wesleyface] Ever since Fred died, I don’t believe in the PTB any more. [/Wesleyface]
Now the question for pepperlandgirl: Remember that episode Way Back When, I think it was S2, when Angel saved a woman who was supposedly pregnant with the Messiah? What was up with that? I only remember it vaguely, and it aired right around the time I was in a bad relationship, so I’ve blocked out most of that part of my life (including the tv I watched). I am too poor to buy the DVDs and I’m not familiar enough with the Angel web community to look it up - my memories are too vague and it could take me a while to find it.
She was a rogue Power? I don’t think I caught that during the Season. Do you remember when they said that?
I’m here, I’m here!
To tell the truth, I actually liked that Jasmine was the one pulling the strings in Season 2 - 4; however, it is fairly confusing as to if the PTB were ever in charge (although one would think that they were because they owed Cordelia a favor), and I also thought it silly and somewhat unforgiveable that they just stopped writing about the Powers.
And the only reason that I liked Jasmine yanking everyone’s chains was because I thought from the get-go that the whole PTB setup was, well… stupid. From the name to the pastel-painted, nymph-wannabe Oracles, it was fairly lame. It seems like they initially wrote the PTB in and just failed with ideas on what to do with them–so they kinda limped along until they could get rid of them, but then failed to explain their absence in the end.
All the other parts of the show were cool, though. Except maybe Lorn’s world. (Silly ending to a great season. Even if Fred came from it all.)
There. Now I’m done whining.
On preview:
That was Season 2’s first episode, Judgement. Nothing ever came of the pregnant woman after the episode ended, and no mention of her or the baby messiah (that I can recall) has been made since.
Well that was pretty stupid then, especially for a franchise that is so famous and deft with multi-season-spanning continuity.
I was hoping that the ep ended with a revelation that the messiah was actually the messiah for another dimension, or something like that (but more creative).
Jasmine herself said something about being disillusioned with the Other Powers who are content to just watch and give hints every once in awhile.
That other Skip was killed. Wesley shot him in the ear, his one Achilles’ Heel.
The Powers always seemed inept or negligent going back as far as Season 1 Buffy. They just watched what was going on and took little interest in actually helping. That was why Jasmine made her scheme. I take their ineffectiveness and irrelevance as Joss’ comment on God.
Well, the episode wasn’t really about the pregnant woman. The episode was about Angel coming to terms with his Championship status and dealing with the thought that the Shanshu wasn’t going to happen immediately. Remember how shook up he was when he killed that demon–her champion–in an effort to be helpful? Remember the White Board literally counting every single demon they killed, as though there was a magical number to reach and he’d be human? That episode was about Angel finding his mission again, and so he literally took on the role of a champion for a Damsel in Distress. Who the Damsel was and why she was in distress really wasn’t important.
That’s what I remember too. The site I use for scripts is down right now, so I can’t pull an exact quote.
I agree with this point. It always seemed very interesting to me that Angel was so wrapped up in the Powers that Be and what they wanted, and Buffy was always so independent, thwarting prophecies and going against the grain. Obviously, the PtB were very ineffectual in Sunnydale, no reason to believe they would take a sudden interest in L.A…
Angel, of course, was focused on his atonement, so I don’t find it surprising that he’d look to a “high power” to discover what he felt that he needed. Buffy lacked the two centuries of slaughter, torture and other fun times, so her lack of pent-up guilt and her shrugging off authority and doing things her own way worked out the best. Over the years, however, Angel’s given the occasional lip-service to the idea that atonement comes from within, but I’m not sure he ever fully believed that–even now. Instead, he always looks elsewhere. His strength somes from other people; Buffy has an inner-strength. Or that’s how I view it.
As for the PTB in Sunnydale: were they ever mentioned, or is it just an assumption that they had any power or recognizance there? My assumption (although I’ve never given much thought to it) has been that, if anything, they were local powers to the L.A. area; basically, a limited deus ex machina vehicle with which the brand-new spin-off could run. (Or to sum up: never really ever thought out in the long-run.)
I took it as that she was a major demon, only pretending to be a Power. You know, part of her Shiney Goodness act. Which isn’t to say either of you are wrong, I just understood it differently.
And maybe I’m stuck on the idea that the PTB were an idea that went nowhere because I’m left with: if we do work with the idea that they’re metaphors for Joss’ view on God, why’d they bother getting involved in the 1st Season? (I think it’s reasonable to accept that Jasmine was possibly in charge during the second season.)
Absolutely the PTB were mentioned on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I refer you to Amends.
The snow came from the PTB to save Angel. And, we’re led to believe–though it’s never stated for absolute certain–that the PTB saved Angel from the hell dimension he was sent to. If the PTB are interested in Angel rather than the location (Sunnydale, LA, other dimensions) than it makes sense that Jasmine chose him to orchestrate the events that would lead to her birth. The Senior Partners are definitely interested in Angel, because of his role in the Apocolypose. The Apocolypse that Lindsay mentioned in ep 17, I’d wager.
Which brings up a pretty interesting discussion on free-will vs destiny. Was Angel destined for a soul? The Shanshu prophecy would imply that yes, he was–I don’t think the Shanshu was ever met for Spike. Spike is a wildcard, he wasn’t supposed to have a soul. Period.
If the prophecy is legit does that mean that he was destined to die? That the Master was destined to turn Darla on her deathbed? How far back does it go? What about Connor?
Angel is all conflicted and upset now because he’s been working for the Sr Partners. Isn’t it all dramatic and angsty if he’s always been working for the wrong guys? First an “evil” PTB and then the truly Evil SP…maybe the finale will lead to Angel realizing he doesn’t have to work for or with any higher power to reach atonement. (I have no idea, btw, that’s just random spec).
I’m not sure I agree with this. I mean, yes, there was snow; and yes, there was the First in this episode–which makes for some excellent continuity for the 7th Season. And I do think the snow is some sort of vague deus ex machina, but there’s no indication that it’s the PTB at work. There’s never any reference to the snow in any episode of Angel and, prior to the first episode of Angel, there’s no stated reference to the PTB at all. (Unless, as the standard disclaimer goes, I missed something.)
I guess what I’m looking for is an explicit reference to the PTB working in Sunnydale. It’d be nice to think that Joss and Co. planned the PTB that far in advance (and I wouldn’t put it past them to do so), but the writing doesn’t come across to me that way.
If the finale goes the way of your speculation, I’ll be happy. I know, of course, that you’re a Spuffy fan, but my favorite star-crossed duo is still Buffy and Angel. Because of that, I’m hoping that when Angel shrugs off those imaginary atonement-chains the higher powers keep wrapping around his ankles, he’ll be free enough to, you know, be happy with Buffy. And vice-versa.
And I agree: Spike has to be a wild card. Hell, he always plays out better as a wild card; I can’t imagine any prophecy fortelling what he does–or even trying. David Eddings wrote a series of fantasy books about a character called Sparhawk. One gimmick of Sparhawk’s was that the gods supposedly couldn’t tell what his fate was; they were, essentially, blind to him. This is how I envision Spike.
I’m still rooting for a Dru and Spike get-together, though. They’re always good for some twisted laughs.
I think Spike’s soul was another botched plotting job. During Season 7, it was implied that there was some reason Spike was driven into getting a soul, that it somehow fit into the First’s plans. But the only thing the First ever did with spike was brainwash him into killing people: for which it’s kind of hard to see why he needed a soul. After that, they bled him and beat him up. Then the First hints that he has some big plan for Spike… which amounts to, like so much else in that season, nothing. Spike’s soul is used to kill the First: but it’s still not clear why he was given it in the first place, and who was behind it.
Actually, I want Buffy to stay far, far, far, far away from Spike and Angel. I think they both both deserve better. But that’s neither here nor there.
I admit that I could just be remembering some spectacular fanwank. I certainly don’t want to pull the DVD out and watch the episode again…here’s how I figure it.
Whistler finds Angel and sets him on his path by showing him Buffy. Whistler works for the Powers that Be. He never says as much, but he implies it throughout Becoming. At that point, Whedon knew DB was going to have his own show, and I’d like to think he was starting to plot for that. In fact, Whistler was supposed to be on AtS, but for whatever reason (I forget, sorry) the Doyle character was introduced instead, playing the same role that Whistler would have played, ie, the conduit to the Powers that Be.
Considering the fact that Joss knew at the end of S3 he’d be doing Angel, and planned to use Whistler as a conduit to the PtB, I think it’s safe to assume that the PtB did have a part in saving Angel from hell and from suicide.
It’s perfectly clear why he was given a soul and who was behind it. . Spike crossed a line he swore he would never cross (Not you, Buffy. I don’t hurt you). He hurt her, and he felt very real guilt and remorse for that. So he rode his magical bike to Africa, met Lurkey the Cave Demon, and won his soul so he would be The kind of man…A kind of man…. That’s why he’s the wild card. The soul wasn’t bestowed on him. It wasn’t part of some greater plan like Angel appeared to be. He did it out of remorse and love, and the attempt to be a good man.
Now, I agree there are some major plotting problems in S7. I read some interviews that literally made me weep. (Wood was supposed to Buffy’s new boyfriend, and die in like, episode 10, and that would send her into more depression—are we surprised that that particular point came from Marti?) I don’t think anything was really planned at all. Marti also said they forgot Spike in the basement for seven episodes and had no idea what to do with him.
Excellent points. I’m glad that you brought up Whistler, because I keep forgetting his short, short stint. He is a Doyle prototype–as you mentioned–so that kinda bridges the PTB for the two shows for me.
I knew that Angel was being planned in Season 3, but I couldn’t remember just when. (If I recall correctly, they decided on Angel having his own vehicle after the success of I Only Have Eyes For You in Season 2.) So I was hesitant to attribute the snow to the PTB; however, your above points make the attribution a lot easier to swallow. Thank you again, Oh Encyclopedic One.
I don’t. It might be because it fits with my world view, but think she was one of the PTB.
One thing that’s attracted me to the Jossverse is that the line between good and evil is blurred. This is also why BtVS S.3 and Ats S.4 are my favorites. The more religious/metaphysical aspect of it all is intrigueing: Would we really want God (i.e. Jehova) to send down Jesus again? What would that really lead to? And when looking into the whole freedom of will, ineffible plan, I’m not so sure I’d want either God or the Adversary (sp?) in close proximity.
Of course, since I’m religion free, I don’t believe in any of that, but it makes for a nice mental excersise. Good is always portrayed as all out good, maybe a bit flawed, but genuinly good, when we come to tv and movies. The hero is a shining knight(-ess) and the villain is a [daffy]deschpicable[/daffy] slimeball. No shades of grey.
But life isn’t like that. Sometimes good people do bad things, from good, but botched, intentions, from negligence, from misdirectyed loyalty. And sometimes evil people do good things, say the truth, help a dog from being run over. Reality isn’t black and white, and during its best, the stories in the Jossverse isn’t either.
So here comes this entity, in the shape of a woman, who turns out to be one of the good guys, one of the big honchos on the side we’re fighting for. But her goals and designs don’t mesh with how we envision a world where the good side has won. How do we deal with that?
That’s the thing about Spike that I liked pre-soul. Even though he was evil, he had a clear insight into what makes people tick. That halloween episode, where they’re being attacked in Giles’ house is priceless.
And the mayor, of course, is the best bad guy ever. Such a well rounded, well written character, capable of emotions, love, kindness, insight, wisdom - and pure evil.
As metaphors for humanity, they’re great, and any lack of continuity is not so annoying, for me. My interest is in the characters and how they evolve.
