Gotta disagree with this. You have no idea what would happen to a heterosexual member of the family who engaged in this behavior. As I mentioned earlier, my family frowns on PDA of most any sort. Now, I don’t think I would be banned from anyone’s house were I to touch my wife’s leg at a family gathering, but you can be sure something would be said.
Also, folks seem to be assuming this “touch on the leg” was completely innocent. Would it change your opinion if the woman was rubbing her girlfriend’s thigh near her crotch?
I think the sister is overreacting completely, based on the information at hand. But don’t be so sure we’ve got the complete story.
??
seemed to me that folks were getting all caught up in ‘how far up the leg’ or ‘did they really hate all PDAs or just same sex ones’ instead of what, to me is the real issue.
Ann’s advice was to suck up and make peace w/the family. and, as a general rule, I agree that we all make some concessions with our families. In general, however, she also will point out when that other family member is out of line, often with the suggestion ‘and tell them Ann said so’. She failed to do this in this case. Why? Some families may be uncomfortable with any PDA, this is true, but banning from their home for one infraction? That seems to me to be an outrageous position for the sister to take, and for Ann to gloss on by w/o even a ‘I think she was wrong’?
Who CARES? This family cares. I admire Guin’s family, but why must every family be required to behave identically? And, what ought someone to do if his or her family doesn’t behave as desirably as Guin’s?
I coped with an anti-Semitic father-in-law (now deceased). When we got engaged, he threw a fit. However, once he accepted the marriage, we both made the best of it. I certainly didn’t rub my religon in his face.
I’ll rephrase. It’s my impression that you feel that making someone uncomfortable by being overtly gay in front of them is worse than making a gay person feel uncomfortable about being gay.
To illustrate, imagine HIO and girlfriend had invited her sister and husband to their house for dinner. At one point, HIO puts her arm around girlfriend’s waist. HIO’s sister exchanges a look with husband and shakes her head slightly, which HIO notices. HIO flips out and throws them out of the house. I’m guessing you would not talk about how HIO’s sister should have modified her behavior to make HIO feel comfortable, and that the sister should apologize and do whatever she could to restore family order.
This is just my impression of your (and Ann’s) position. I could be wrong of course.
december, you are absolutely right, but missing my point. Yes, families are not required to behave rationally, and yes, we take crap and/or modify our behavior to appease our family when we wouldn’t do so for friends, strangers, etc. Hell, it took eight long years for me to tell my family I was atheist, and I had a friend who never told his anti-Semetic grandfather that he had converted to Judaism.
I have no problem with Ann telling HIO to apologize again. But, I do have a problem with Ann telling HIO that HIO was wrong. That is my beef, and all the attempts to deconstruct Ann’s language by others in this thread doesn’t change the fact that that is what Ann said.
So it turns out that this attribution is not based on any direct inferences from anything I’ve said about the matter, which I’ve not addressed. Rather, on your “impression” and “guess” as to what “a person who said X” would likely say about Y. An interesting approach to take from an intellectual standpoint, but hey, perhaps it has served you well in life. And considering that you earlier said it was “pretty clear”, one would would have to consider that progress is being made.
“Recently my sister banished me from her house because I touched my girlfriend’s leg in her presence. I’ve apologized but to no avail. What should I do? Hurt in Ohio”
"Dear Hurt,
"Go out and buy a big supply of the most hardcore lesbian porno you can find. Double-headed anal dildo action. Weighted nipple clamps. Cherry tomato stuffing. The works. Wrap them up with a big bow and send them to your sister with a note reading, ‘It must be nice not to have any REAL problems in your life. But see what we could have been doing on your couch? Kind of puts that whole leg touching thing in perspective, huh? Now take a GIANT chill pill and GET OVER IT.’
“Of course, Hurt, I have to ask why you would want to spend time with someone who treats you and the love of your life so appallingly, or why you would think her atrocious lack of manners is somehow your fault. You tell her Annie says she’s a big fat jerk.”
Listen, dipshit. Both your first post to the thread and your later bullshit analogies sound to me like you value the comfort of homophobes over the comfort of homosexuals. I can’t read your mind, so I only talked about what your opinion seemed to be, based on those statements. That way, if you didn’t mean them that way, you could explain things to me more clearly.
Instead of clarifying or re-stating your position, you’ve just wasted time in this thread arguing about what people said you said. This, in my opinion, is because you are an idiotic little turd.
december, my point is, that touching someone’s leg isn’t necessarily a sexual gesture. It could be just done unconsciously, like she just happened to be sitting next to her gf, and just put her arm to the side and it happened to touch gf’s leg.
Like my grandmother always pats me on the knee. It’s no big deal. I think her sister overreacted.
And fine, you were able to deal with a racist family member. However, no one said YOU were at fault. And I hardly think that HIO was flaunting anything.
Sorry, but it’s difficult to debate an issue with numerous people while simultaneously dealing with people who attribute to you views that you’ve never expressed, about issues that are only tangentially related. Especially if they do it in as confusing a manner as you did. To expect people to only attribute to you things that you’ve actually said does not seem like a lot to ask for. But then, considering the mentality you’ve displayed in your posts to this thread, perhaps it is, of you.
Sua, we’ll have to let our disagreement stand. I agree with Ann that HIO was wrong, for the reason she gave: “The public display of affection did not sit well with the family.” Therefore the PDA was rude, period. Re-read HIO’s letter. She admitted that she did wrong and asked for advice on how to resolve the family turmoil – exactly what Ann provided.
I do grant that making a mistake is different from committing a moral offence. I think I understand Sua’s frustration that Ann’s response doesn’t properly discriminate between the two concepts.
BTW, as a guess, one reason for the family’s sensitivity may be the age of the nephew and his friends. They are probably young, since HIO is only 35 years old.
I re-read the letter, and HIO did not “admit that she did wrong”. What she did say was, “I didn’t realize that simple gesture would be so offensive. I have apologized and promised to avoid public displays of affection toward Alice at future family gatherings, but it has made no difference.” I’m not spliting hairs here; facts are facts. Apologizing for inadvertantly offending someone who’s beliefs differ from yours is not an admission of guilt, it’s an example of good manners.
Cajo, you have a point. It seemed to me that HIO’s mention of her failure to realize the offensiveness of the gesture was offered as excuse for doing wrong – not morally wrong, but wrong in practice.
I agree with the title of your post, but it’s irrelevent. HIO’s family wasn’t seeking advice from Ann; HIO was. The only meaningful advice concerned actions that HIO could take. I think it was good advice. Don’t you?
HIO made it clear that her apology was not accepted and that’s why she needed help figuring out what to do next, so while I think the advice was good, it had already been followed before Ann had given it – if you know what I mean. I’m presuming HIO already offered more than one unsuccessful apology before the letter to Ann; that avenue turned out to be a cul-de-sac.
Also, starting her response with “For openers, you should keep your hands off Alice’s leg”, after HIO plainly stated that she planned to avoid future PDAs, was an insulting waste of HIO’s time. Ann’s remark showed a distinct lack of clue.
This is where my subject title comes in. If Ann had nothing helpful or new to say to HIO she should have moved on to another letter where she could provide counsel more helpful than “apologize some more and hope to be forgiven”. Failing that, she could have said, “You’ve already done what you should. Now it’s up to your sister to do the right thing – accept your apology and your generous offer to accommodate her intolerance by climbing back into the closet when around your family.”
This I agree with. But OTOH, from what little I’ve read of advice columns, I think this kind of pointless blather is pretty standard fare. So I would not read too much into it.