That always cracks me up. People viciously attacking one another, only to conclude that whatever the other party is going to respond is irrelevant, because they “don’t give a rat’s ass anyway”. Repeat ad infinitum.
Ah… you must be one of the 70% of Foxnews viewers who believe that Saddam helped OBL :rolleyes:
We’re damned if we keep our troops there, because anti-American sentiment is still very high, and soldiers continue to die.
We’re damned if we withdraw them, because the only result can be more chaos. The country doesn’t appear to be sufficiently stable to rule itself.
From a world standpoint, the U.S.'s staying there looks more like an occupation and less like a liberation, no matter what the intentions are. Iraqi citizens appear to like having the troops there and wouldn’t be terribly pleased if they suddenly left. At the same time, however, they seem to feel that the longer those troops are there, the more it’s like an occupation, and resentment could be a product of that view.
And of course, if the U.S. troops were to withdraw, many in the world would look at it as the U.S. not being able to finish what it started, and that couldn’t be good for U.S.-world relations.
As much as I don’t like war, and as much as I thought we had no real good reason to be in this one, I cannot say that bringing the troops home now would be a good idea. We need to see this thing through, sadly. It’s not a great solution by any means, though.
All right. I have a question for all of you. It’s to the people who defend the administration as well as those who are its detractors.
17 soldiers died today. They were men & women…brothers & sisters…sons & daughters. They died military service to our nation and deserve honor and respect.
Now Here’s The Question:
Can you even name one of them?
I am so fucking sick and tired of stats being spouted on the nightly news. I want names, damnit. And ranks. And ages. And where they’re from and who they left behind. If this war is nothing to be ashamed of, then we should be seeing their names. We should be mourning their loss and renewing our resolve. We shouldn’t just spout ‘17 soldiers died today…’ and then just move on like we’ve wiped our collective Asses with them and flushed them away. They deserve better than that. They died for the policies of our country; is saying their names too much to ask?
AFAIK you won’t even see them coming home.
Correct me if I wrong but hasn’t there been a ban on showing returning coffins etc.
Only one of the 17 has been named:
(from CNN.com’s main page)
The other 16 have not yet been named, because their families have not yet been notified. In this particular instance, this seems not to be the fault of the media.
If you scroll past the fluff on Central Command’s main page, down to the bottom, where they hide the link to the casualty reports, you’ll be able to access the official report on the incident:
See what through? Because the USA has had and still has the option of calling in the UN but it refuses to share any power or decision making. After it is proven you were wrong, if you insist on not turning back because you do not want to lose face you look like an idiot. You do not look better, you look worse.
It is clear the USA considers Iraq its own spoils which it does not want to share in any way. The US government has made the decision that Iraq shall not be free to decide its own course. It has decided that Iraq will be a US colony for years to come and it will not allow the UN or others to interfere with that. The price will be in American lives and the responsibility for that lies entirely with the leader who led the country into the quagmire. Many people do not want to look back and admit it was a disastrous decision. They want to obviate the question by saying we cannot go back in time. It seems to me a discussion of what lead to this situation is very appropriate. Maybe the conclusion is that it is better to dump the leader who caused all this overboard and chart a new course. Of course, if the situation in Iraq keeps worsening, as it seems it will, I predict the American people will vote in a new leader.
They may. Or they may ignore the situation over there and concentrate on what affects them more directly: the economy.
I feel that if the situation is no better in Nov. 2004 than it is now ANd the economy is worse or the same, your prophesy will come true. However, if the economy has recovered substantially - and I don’t mean in terms of what “experts” say, I mean in terms of actual jobs and an improvement of life for the average American - then it’s possible he’ll retain his job, right or wrong.
I don’t mean to suggest that the average American citizen is short sighted, but I think that for most people the thing that matters most is their own quality of life; what goes on in other countries is secondary (not unimportant, just secondary).
“See what through”? The reconstruction, whether with the UN or without. I would hope - perhaps futilely - that that’s the grand purpose of our being there right now. My opinion is that even with the removal of a dictator, conditions in Iraq are still pretty awful, and our leaving wouldn’t improve them suddenly.
And our staying will ?
I don’t know. I really don’t. It just seems to me that bringing them all out right now would mean absolutely nothing was accomplished, that we would be leaving the country a decimated ruin with very little hope of becoming a viable place to live.
That’s One name. OK, this is recent and families have not been notified yet. Have they been notified about the tank crew killed Friday with the home made bomb? Have they been notified about the 3 soldiers ambushed & killed near Tikrit earlier last week? This is the first name I’ve seen since in print since April…and if its the media’s fault, then the media’s a Damn Disgrace. And if its a PR Issue, then whoever’s in charge of setting that policy is a Damn Disgrace.
I agree with you, quietman. I don’t think it’s fair or right to make this a faceless war. There are people - some of them damn young - risking their lives for us over there in hostile territory. It’s dishonorable to make them into generic soldiers.
I do not understand those who say once you get in you have to stay in even if events prove you were wrong or you will lose respect. Does anybody respect pigheadedness? I don’t think so.
The USA has an easy way out and that is to ask the UN to take over. It does not have to admit anything about being right or wrong, just ask the UN to take over and that moment US responsibility ceases. The reason America will not do this is because it wants to be the boss and call the shots in Iraq.
However it may be dressed and camouflaged it is a war of colonization, of plunder and of military power. That is the reason the USA will not get out unless and until the price becomes too high.
If history teaches us anything it is that it is easy to get involved in this type of mess and it is difficult to find a way out.
Responsibility would certainly not cease if that were to happen. Responsibility for what is to come might, but not the responsibility of what created the situation in the first place. I don’t think the UN would want to take over without the U.S. being involved at all; they’ve been awfully reluctant to do much in Iraq, if their rhetoric is to be believed.
Still, it would be a smart thing for the U.S. to do. Abdicate authority, and the troops can come home (at least most of them). Troops coming home would mean a boost in popularity for the president and the Iraq mess could be cleaned up without further shedding of American blood. But you’re right; they probably want to keep Bremer there and be able to continue to hand out those lucrative contracts to U.S. companies.
The UN and individual countries have said they are willing to donate more and to take over more responsibilities so long as the USA steps back but the US government has rebuffed them.
It is ludicrous to believe the USA will not cede power and control because they are conserned about the kind of job the UN might do. I mean, come on, what are the chances the UN might do worse? At this point close to zero. The uSa does not care about the Iraqi people or their well being. It cares about controlling Iraq, economically and militarilly. that is the only thing that matters and the USA cannot turn control over to the UN because it is that control the USA is after.
Leaders often lead their people into adventures which seem promised with easy victory and glory and which later turn out to be messy retreats. I do not know how messy this will be in the end but it is already a far cry from the easy victory some had predicted. Unfortunately the price is being paid by innocent victims on both sides. Iraqis qho have done nothing to deserve being shot or killed and American soldiers who have been given the task which should not have been started.
The US government cares little about the victims on either side. there is a deliberate policy to hide their names and even their numbers.
And yet everybody has heard about Jessica Lynch. The invented hero whose story was an invented farce from day one.
I love this notion that people who want the troops to come home mean “bring them home this very instant”.
That is not what we mean and you fucking know it.
Okay. What’s your plan? When do you want them all to come home?
Well if the UN comes in and turns the situation for the better, the US would look like an ass, which I doubt is what Bush and Co. want.
I can only imagine that they are running Iraq in a similar fashion as the US. Where potholes takes months to fix, and bureaucratic incompetence is the norm.
In response to an earlier post, here’s a fairly up to date list of the brave, unfortunate souls who have lost their lives in the name of the US:
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html