I’ve asked something along these lines in another thread, but thought I’d make a new thread to concentrate on this specific instance.
I was reminded of the infamous Shakespeare quote “the first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.” Never mind that the quote really has the opposite intent that most people assign to it - what struck me was the use of the word “lawyer.” Such a word is an Americanism these days. How is it that “lawyer” crossed the pond and remained in force here while “solicitor” (which means something entirely different in America) became de rigeur in Britain?
The term “lawyer” is still used in Britain. In fact, one of the big buisiness law newspapers in Britain is called “The Lawyer”. You can see it here:
A solicitor is just a kind of lawyer…one who solicits legal work from clients and who isn’t authorized to represent clients before the bar, as opposed to a barrister, who’s authorized to appear before the bar. (I think this distinction is disappearing, though. I’m pretty sure there have been moves to allow solicitors to represent clients in court.)
In the UK and Australia (and I suppose in Canada and New Zealand as well), the word “lawyer” basically refers to barristers and solicitors. Whereas your lawyers act as both barristers and solicitors. I suppose an American attorney would be the equivalent of a Commonwealth barrister, or something.
I think in Shakespeare’s time, “lawyer” was a synonym for “attorney” and “solicitor.” Solicitors are so called because they solicit the dough from the client to give a cut to the barrister.
In the US, “attorney” is entirely synonymous with “lawyer.” There are some jurisdictions where it is not; I believe in some places “attorney” refers only to a prosecutor.
Funny, isn’t it, that although the US doesn’t have barristers, one must still “pass the bar”?
As **Captain Amazing ** said, lawyer is the term for the profession in general, as all solicitors and barristers will have a graduate Law degree. However, barristers and solicitors will have passed different professional exams after graduation.
Another difference between the USA and the UK is that Law is an undergraduate degree in the UK (4 years in duration, commencing immediately upon leaving school) and a post graduate degree in the USA (Law school, after completing a primary degree).
In the USA it is the Law degree that is the end point, while in the UK the degree is the starting point before years of professional exams and on-the-job training.
yes there is nothing in principle to stop a solicitor from doing almost anything
"All solicitors have full rights of audience in
tribunals
Coroners Courts
Magistrates Courts
County Courts
the European Courts
Solicitors may also obtain rights of audience in the higher courts:
the Crown Court
the High Court
the Court of Appeal
the House of Lords
A solicitor usually briefs a barrister on a case in the higher courts. The barrister then presents the case to the court.
However, a solicitor may choose to gain higher rights in order to offer a complete service for a client – from initial advice through to case preparation and presentation before the courts."
For British members who may not be aware of it, in America a ‘solicitor’ is someone who asks for donations, usually as part of an organized charitable enterprise. You wouldn’t usually hear the word in ordinary conversation, but you do see ‘No Solicitors’ signs on the doors of business establishments.
I would guess that many British solicitors never go near a law court. Most of their work is concerned with such bread and butter matters as drawing up wills, buying and selling houses, swearing oaths, non contested divorces and giving people general legal advice.
You use of “gradute degree” here is confusing to this American. To me, it means something higher than a bachelor’s degree.
I take it you mean to say that in the United Kingdom, to become a lawyer, one needs a bachelor’s degree in law (LL.B. or the equivalent).
In the United States, one usually needs a bachelor’s degree (in any subject) plus a law degree – traditionally a “bachelor of laws” (LL.B.) degree, but today usually a “juris doctor” (J.D.) degree.
In the United States, degrees like J.D., M.D., Ed.D., Psych.D., etc., are usually referred to as “professional” degrees rather than as graduate or post-graduate degrees.
In New York, until sometime in the 1800s, there was still a similar distinction. “Counsellors at law” were like barristers, appearing in court, and “attorneys as law” were like solicitors, generally not appearing at court.
My New York bar admission certificate says that I am admitted as an “Attorney and Counsellor at Law.”
This may be common practice but is not precise. To be a lawyer you must be admitted to the bar. Anyone can be an attorney. If you represent yourself in court, you are serving as your own attorney. You can sign a paper giving someone else a “power of attorney” to act in your behalf.
If you represent yourself in court you are also acting as your own lawyer.
The second example is the distinction between an attorney-at-law and an attorney-in-fact (“power of attorney.”) Unqualified, “attorney” always means the former.
I had thought that someone would have addressed this already. There was a very sardonic comment some time ago that “In the office buildings downtown, during the day you will find lawyers. Around those same buildings, at night, you will find prostitutes. Both are solicitors who will take your money and then screw you. The difference is that the latter gives value for the transaction.” :dubious:
In all seriousness, however, all American persons with law degrees are admitted to the bar, and may not practice until they are. But they tend to do the same sort of differentiation, with some becoming ‘trial lawyers’ specializing much as English barristers do, and some becoming counselors in various aspects of law in much the way English solicitors do. And note that not all bar members in America are entitled to practice before all appellate courts; that privilege is granted on a court-by-court basis after experience at the trial level is gained.
Oh, yes, and many do it, especially if they’re running a business where knowledge of the law is important. I don’t have the statistics at hand any more, but IIRC there are at least 100,000 people in the U.S. with a law degree who never sought admission to the bar.
The legal standard, in New York at least, is that one may not give legal advice for payment unless one is a practicing lawyer admitted to the bar. When I was involved with a technical assistance program some years back, this resulted in some interesting and carefully crafted memos informing small-town public officials what the answers to their legal questions were. We would write at length on what the law said, making sure to craft the product in such a way as to lead to only the proper conclusion, but could never tell them what they needed to do – since we were receiving salaries for this work, that would be practicing law. But to say, in a circumstance almost precisely like yours, the State Attorney General or the Court of Appeals said this… and let them draw the conclusion that the same thing applied to them, was not; it was merely doing legal research in their behalf. Only on those occasions where a legal opinion seemed absolutely required by the circumstances, or where the research seemed to show a contradiction, would we call in the agency’s counsel-on-retainer to produce a full-blown legal opinion.
There are many who do. Although the practice is far from universal, one hint may be on such a person’s business card: “Jo Blowe, J.D.” v. “Jo Blowe, Esq.”, only the latter of which (in U.S. custom) indicates that Ms. Blowe is holding herself out as a duly licensed attorney.
Of course, it may also indicate that Ms. Blowe is retired or semi-retired. For example, I’m an attorney who currently works in the legal publishing industry. I no longer practice law, but I still maintain my bar membership. My employer likes me to use “Esq.” after my name, but a few of my colleagues don’t like that and use “J.D.” instead.
Exception: the “Esq.” generally doesn’t mix with other degrees. So a medical doctor who’s also a licensed attorney (I’ve known a few) will usually use “Bob Foreapples, M.D., J.D.”
