Nah, they know where all the good hunny is.
Because the WHO is a well respected international agency, part of the UN, who is, at least in theory, impartial and neutral. So, if such an agency that you trust tells you something, and some media you trust repeats it enough, and then China state run media uses the statements from the WHO to support their own positions and re-enforce them and give them credibility, and if that media then quotes those Chinese state run sources, eventually you’ve seen enough to convince you…this all holds together perfectly! Then, if some idiot who you don’t trust…like, say Trump…denies that and attacks the WHO and the CCP and calls this the ‘Chinese virus’ and other stupid shit, you are even more convinced than ever. This time the CCP is on the up and up. The WHO has confirmed it!!
But this is all circular. The WHO, even if we leave aside any accusations of corruption, is using CCP data to draw the conclusions they have drawn. They haven’t done their own, on the ground and in-depth review of that data, independently gone out to verify it…hell, they couldn’t even with one country if they wanted too, and they don’t want too. They sent some observers who were shown what the CCP wanted them to see, met with medical administrative people orchestrated by the CCP, and use the CCPs data.
People know…they KNOW…that the CCP lies about everything. They know the CCP has in the past and continues to apply pressure and force people, organizations, countries and politicians to spout their narrative. But this time it’s different! The WHO confirms it. It’s brilliant, if you think about it…
(and if you buy into even part of this seemingly crazy CT)
POOH BEAR RULZ! (quite literally, in actual fact. #PresitatorForLife!)
I don’t think anyone is holding up China as being the shining example for how to handle an outbreak; if anything they are being criticized in epidemiological community for not posting a potential epidemic alert until just before they started building that giant improvised hospital, which means they probably had at least a month of lead time. The nations that are being credited as good examples are South Korea (early and readily available testing), Germany (testing and social distancing), Iceland (a fuckton of testing, community awareness, and voluntary distancing above and beyond the normal a ount of distancing Icelanders already engage in), and Denmark (distancing, shutting down nonsessential industries, putting a freeze on all non-critical fiscal transactions and essentially freezing their economy).
China, on the other hand, has acted with questionable efficacy and the kind of high-handed total shutdown only possible in an authoritarian state, and is now “re-opening for business” in a questionable environment because even if they’ve vanquished the epidemic domestically, the possibility of reinfection from abroad looms large over a population ill-equipped for long-term physical distancing. The idea that China is or can effectively pull the wool over the eyes of the epidemiological community is laughable. Now, the WHO, as a branch of the UN, may be going along with China as a realpolitik necessity, bit were China engaging in deliberate biowarfare (which is not totally beyond belief), serology will ultimately demonstrate the case because it just isn’t possible to engage in genetic recombination without leaving traces…unless you think China has discovered a completely new and error-free method of genetic manipulation.
In any case, there are enough conspiracy theories flying around right now, and we don’t really need to be spreading more as promoted by a guy doing his serious newscaster impression with his best off-the-rack Men’s Warehouse suit in front of a greenscreen straight from his parent’s basement. Let’s stick to facts and informed, qualified speculation.
Stranger
I take it you’ve already stocked up on forsythia?
Last time I checked, it was still the Party’s official name, yes.
I guess you haven’t heard the criticism of the WHO pandering to Chinese interests and about them basically parroting what the CCP says about their situation?
Chronos must be another CCP plant.
And Barack Obama’s middle name is Hussein, but anyone who makes a point of calling him by it isn’t worth listening to either.
It’s not being used out of some pedantic adherence to accuracy, but as a blatant attempt at poisoning the well with red-baiting.
”I pretty sure what’s killing the crops is this Brawndo stuff.”
Stranger
First of all, the official name is the Communist Party of China (CPC), not the Chinese Communist Party. Calling it the CCP is like referring to the ruling party in WWII Germany as “Enzies”, which would really piss off New Zealanders. And trust me, you don’t want to piss off New Zealand; I know they don’t routinely invade Middle Eastern nations and Jacinda Ardern seems like a really nice person who would never speak ill of anyone but you get on the wrong side of New Zealand and they will have Lucy Lawless put a Xena: Warrior Princess-grade smackdown on you, and let me remind you that this is the woman who domesticated Ron Swanson. Also, while not making a fuss about it, they have the best SAS unit in the Commonwealth by dint of having to train in the most ridiculously dangerous and varied terrain in the world. None of this nancy-boy “hill-walking” of the Brits or pussy-footing around the desert of the Aussies; they have real fucking mountains and volcanoes and earthquakes and really dangerous tidal zones that will suck one into the depths of R’lyeh if not careful. New Zealanders maintain an air of being casually indifferent and slightly out of touch with the world writ Flight of the Conchords in order to conceal their utter lethality in any conflict. By the way, Bret McKenzie and and Jermaine Clement are international assassins whose kill count would make Chuck Barris look like an amateur.
I’ve since lost my point like Taika Waititi in a Marvel film, but I’m pretty sure that whatever random conspiracy that anyone has found on YouTube is wrong by virtue of the medium. Any actual, functional conspiracy would be well-planned enough to bend social media to its will rather than be exposed by it, because if there is anything more fungible than Play-Doh, it is Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. That shit is more pliant than Silly Putty, except toxic if consumed in quantity.
Stranger
Nailed it in one.
Mao on a pogo stick. Use of CCP has increased faster than the rate of Covid-19 transmission in NY, and in about the same timeline. 6 months ago one would have been hard pressed to see the term anywhere. And few folks could have told you what it stood for if you asked what acronym it was. And same folks are suddenly dusting off some of the relatively recent “greatest hits” of the absolutely horrible things the Chinese government has done. Just the tip of the iceberg. I’m watching it morph in real time. The Uighurs has expanded to the Tibetans. I wonder how long before Mongolians, Manchurians and other ethnic groups get looped in. (I’m not going to go into it, but it is horrific on so many levels)
Authoritarian governments’ baseline view is that data is secret by default. It is how they roll. This certainly includes China.
My experience working in China (5 years of which was in Taiwan or HK) starting in 1982 for 20+ years is that
- Data trends were pretty accurate. For example, the way inflation was reported may not have been accurate, but they used the same process, haircuts, calculations and outright spin reasonably steadily
- There is a perception that China has accurate data country wide. Garbage in, garbage out. Can’t have covid-19 deaths, then it was a “flu death”. Bureaucrats the world over in governments and companies have perfected that art form. China may be in the top 5 percentile in that skill.
- Once the leader cracks down, shit flows down hill. If heads are rolling and need for transparency the order of the day, then the pendulum goes the other way.
- Chinese leaders, like many large bureaucracies, don’t like bad news, therefore there is a real incentive not to be the bearer of bad news. Whistleblowers are not treated like hero’s in many places in the world, including China.
- It is certainly possible that when the daily fatality rate was practically zero, that there was some fudging to make it zero. And maybe even at the top to give the masses hope.
BUT a large scale cover up of massive deaths with people dropping like flies in the streets is complete nut job conspiracy theory.
a. Information is not locked down. Sure it isn’t as free as in the West, but getting information out is not a challenge.
b. The Chinese diaspora is huge and they talk with their families on a daily basis.
c. there is wechat and weibo, which have armies of censors playing whack a mole
d. you can live stream
e. Personal ancedote. Up until a month ago I worked for one of the largest international manufacturers in China. The CEO was my skip level. Company has dozens of massive factory complexes throughout China making products that all of you use every day. One of the factories employed 15,000 people in Wuhan. We had twice daily executive calls (I participated in only one per day), had instituted factory controls *before *Chinese new year, hired the Hero of SARS as a consultant, etc. I knew dozens of people at that factory and interacted with them weekly if not daily. There is simply no way there were conspiracy level deaths and infections.
A good work buddy of mine was patient zero for that company. He was intubed in an ICU in a nearby city for about 5 days. I wechated with him the last two days. While he was at deaths door, he went back to work at the end of Feb. The entire million plus employees in China only had a handful of covid 19 cases. I was in the meetings where the daily count was covered.
And, just as an aside, my old company spun up a mask production line. It wasn’t n-95 level, but good enough to reopen the factory. And why did they spin up mask production, because every one of those workers needs at least one mask per day to legally work. Round the number and that is half a billion masks per year.
I realize I’m just one random guy on the interwebs, but if you go thru my history of posting, it would support that I worked in China for ages and know something about the country.
The guys of Iraq WMD fame? :rolleyes:
The US intelligence community as a whole produced accurate information about the alleged development of weapons of mass destruction by Iraq; as the Plame Affair demonstrated, there was a political agenda in top management that promoted the notion that there were serious nuclear weapon and other programs not substantiated by actual evidence. The US intelligence apparatus often produces flawed interpretations and analysis by dint of incomplete information but the claim that Iraq was actively producing nuclear and chemical weapons was of political manufacture under pressure from neocons looking for a rationale to invade Iraq.
Stranger
And there is absolutely no political pressure right now to make the Chinese situation look worse than it is to mask domestic failings…yeah.
Is there not enough to deal with right now to not also have to address conspiracy theories with no basis in evidence and that are primarily justified with ethnic slurs?
There is a basic principle in warfare; shoot back at the enemy that is shooting at you. Unless there is some actual reason to believe that the “CCP” (an incorrect label that appears to have been promulgated by the same conservative conspiranoists that made “Pizzagate” a thing) is actively working to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus around the globe, maybe the best use of energy and effort is to focus on dealing with the pandemic first and then applying blame later.
Or we can fight amongst ourselves while the ship sinks beneath the waves. Because history will record who was most victorious of all of the drowning victims.
Stranger
My wife has been seeing the same kind of story on WeChat about funeral urn orders, although the figure she has been quoting was 28,000 (8 facilities * 500 urns/day * 7 days).
Um…no. Why would I? Know what ELSE I haven’t done? Gone all TCM.
As for the real debate in this thread…I’ve used CCP literally for decades. I’ve used in ON THIS BOARD FOR A DECADE. Yet, NOW it’s an issue apparently because it’s critically important to call them the Communist Party of China. Yes, let’s get to the heart of this critical semantic quandary that no one cared about in the last 10,000 posts I made using the term. 
Anyway, when I start to see stuff like Bo’s post about some crazy crap or the attempt to focus on the semantic naming of an evil organization as the important bit, I know the thread has jumped the shark…and this thread was probably pre-jumped.
I do have a question for people. Just a thought experiment. Do the numbers make sense to you, and if so, can you explain your logic? Does the fact that, in all of China the number of infections since January (or December or even November) are less than the number of infections in New York City alone? Does that seem logical to you? Does it seem accurate? Anyone question how that’s possible, especially when we know more about how this thing spreads, and about China at the time this thing started, and Chinese culture wrt shared meals and dense interaction?
Five years ahead of time, no less.
Because they locked down brutally hard? Contained the bulk of cases in Wuhan/Hubei, and got about 10% of China’s medical staff into Wuhan (maybe that is a propaganda piece, but the Government pulled in a significant number of medical staff from around the country)? The city population went full cultural revolution and policed their neighbors? People stopped travelling?
If you suppose that 15 December (or pick your date) it was realized that there was a mysterious pneumonia making the rounds, and locked down Wuhan just 5 weeks later, and within a few days the entire country. Compared to the US, where case zero was 21 January and the Wuhan lockdown on 23 January should have been the big beacon signal. Florida just *yesterday *issued a stay at home order. Think about all those spring breakers that took their infections home to the rest of the US? New Yorkers packed nose to derriere with mass subway ridership and massive foreign travel oblivious to the festering underbelly before a significant number of them fled / are fleeing the situation. Heck, I know an investment banker that flew back to his native S Korea because that felt much safer with testing and medical care than staying in the East Coast epidemic.
Here’s a map showing travelbased on cell phone usage across the US. Fucking flyover country is going to keep this thing aflame as covid-19 festers amongst their communities and then re-infects the rest of us that have been biting the bullet for over a month.
And is it a surprise that the US might have more accurate case reporting than China? Much of which is still a third world country.
Dig a little into your questions, and it ain’t so clear cut. Just like the urn thing. Is there a reliable database on all the crematoriums in Wuhan tracked over the past 5 years? The answer would be obvious. INstead it’s a conspiracy theory based on a single “data point” which is more than likely from an extremely dubious source.