Another CT...what is the real death toll in China? (yeah, another freaking video)

In My Humble Opinion
41

They did…in Hubei by March 23rd. Consider this though…Wuhan is a tier 2 city in China of over 11 million people. The first reported case was in November, with deaths already happening by mid-December. Not only was there a concerted cover up by the CCP during this time, but the medical workers weren’t allowed to discuss this openly either. Oh, and the local CCP administration, on instructions from Beijing, through a large (80k) social gathering in the run up to the anticipated New Year celebrations.

So, again I ask you…do the numbers make sense? Based on your user name you’ve been to a Chinese family meal before. You’ve probably gone to a Chinese market before as well. You’ve probably seen Chinese bargaining before. You are aware of Chinese culture and dining practices. You can probably extrapolate even better than I can just what the impact would be in this environment for something like COVID-19. Now consider…first reported case in New York was March 1st. It wasn’t covered up. New York is a city of 8 million plus. By the end of March, there were more cases in New York City than IN ALL OF CHINA, INCLUDING WUHAN. Do those numbers still make sense to you based on the authoritarian lock down? Because they don’t add up to me, especially knowing that this thing was allowed some time (weeks, maybe a month) to run rampant.

Last question. Does it make sense to you that the CCP lied about this to begin with yet now is telling the truth? I mean, the same motivation that caused them to lie and cover this thing up still hold after all. And we basically have only their word for it. Oh, sure, the WHO finally got a team into Wuhan and even into wider Hubei, but it was shown and saw what the CCP wanted it too. It was more like the tours you get when you go to North Korea than that the team was allowed to go where they wanted too, see what they needed too, and make their own determinations.

The US is a bit different, as we pretty obviously were hit from multiple vectors, but let’s use your logic. First cases were in November. At that time, the Chinese medical people didn’t know what, exactly they had. There was probably a patient zero who might have been asymptomatic initially, spreading the disease in a wet market…or the infected animal might have been one butchered in that wet market, spreading it to the operators of that stall and any customers inspecting that bat for purchase. It spread to others in the market, who spread it to others in the market and to their families. A large party was thrown, where it could and probably did spread further. People would have been constantly leaving the city to go around China, especially since Chinese New Year was right around the corner, but also because Chinese move around a lot. By December you had deaths starting and the local medical people knew this was something they hadn’t seen. But there were no full quarantines at this time. The opposite. People weren’t even told it was an issue, and in fact told, specifically, by their government that there was no human to human transfer, nothing to worry about (let’s have a big party!), and the WHO backed them up on that. Anyone trying to say differently was either arrested or told to shut up or else. All the while, people would have been moving around China with this thing. 1 person infects 2, 2 people infect 4, 4 people infect 8, etc etc. Uncontrolled. Throughout Wuhan and throughout China.

Even if we use January as the baseline (i.e. pretend this thing wasn’t out and spreading from mid-November through December), the numbers STILL don’t add up when you think about how Chinese culture works, especially in the light of a news blackout from their government for at least 10 days of this (that’s going by the official numbers).

That blackout never happened in the US. It didn’t happen in Italy, France, Spain or the UK. I don’t know what the real numbers are, but they aren’t 82k and hardly moving at all in weeks now (2 weeks ago the number was 81k and change). I’ve seen estimates (granted, this is an unconfirmed report that supposedly was given to the UK Prime Minister) that the real figure could be 5-15 times more than the official numbers. Not sure about that, but the thing is, who knows? The CCP has made a career out of lying, and the bigger the lie the more happy they seem to be. Why would THIS time be any different than any other? And we have only their word, and the WHO who gets their data from the CCP, on any of this.

42

Going to link to this slightly out of date video that I’m sure no one will watch that does a fairly decent job of going over the actual time line of the virus spread in the early days and how China reacted. Probably won’t matter, but unlike China Uncensored which is out of New York, this guy is European and out of Prague (he’s a UK ex-pat FWIW). The Too Boring, Didn’t Watch synopsis is that this thing first popped up in mid-November, though there are some indications patient zero probably had it even earlier. By mid-December people were already dying and the now famous doctor, Li Wenliang posted on WeChat about this on December 20th saying 7 of his patience had died from a new SARs strain. He was, of course, shut down and forced to sign a paper saying it was fake news and that there was no evidence of human to human transmission going on. This remained the official stance of China until mid-January…on the 16th of January local CCP officials put out an official statement that everything was under control, that only a few dozen had been affected, no new infections and no human to human spread had been observed (despite the fact that the Chinese medical system had found such a think back in December).

43

Please stop spewing conspiracy theories around like an infant playing with stewed prunes.

Stranger

44

No. But thanks for your input.

45

XT, you are convinced that the Chicoms are tres evil. Ain’t no evidence in the world that is going to convince you that your opinion is incorrect. It’s whack a mole.

This isn’t the civil war, great leap forward, cultural revolution, Tian’anmen or even the turn of the century. Believe it or don’t, but Xi Jinping does not control all the information coming out of China. Millions of Chinese that are overseas call home every day and it would get out if people are dying in the streets, Apple and others would know if the factories are not restarting because more people are dying than in a Nazi work camp. Yet we are supposed to believe a buncha gweilohs that know jack shit about China, have never been there, and source their information from conspiracy sites?

Howsabout you do us all a favor and lay off spreading conspiracy theories and making up new ones? Thanks for playing

46

World Health Organization (WHO) @WHO · Jan 14
Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China

The W.H.O. has been exposed as carrying water for the Chinese regime, to the detriment of the entire world.

47

Anymore racist epithets you wanna drop?

48

:smack:
No clear evidence in “preliminary” investigation.
Translation: *At least for now there seems to be no human to human transmission but that could change as we find out more. *
How the fuck is that objectionable?

49

That was January 14. at least two weeks after this:

[Taiwan has accused the World Health Organization of failing to communicate an early warning about transmission of the coronavirus between humans, slowing the global response to the pandemic.

Health officials in Taipei said they alerted the WHO at the end of December about the risk of human-to-human transmission of the new virus but said its concerns were not passed on to other countries.](Taiwan says WHO failed to act on coronavirus transmission warning)

In addition to that the doctor that tried to raise the alarm, and was suppressed by the Chinese government, contracted the disease from a patient (that human to human thing) “On 8 January, Li contracted the coronavirus when he came into contact with an infected patient at his hospital.”

50

Concern and risk. Nobody ever denied that.
But of course racist gonna racist.

51

Taiwan passed on information from Chinese doctors that there had been cases of contagion from patients to doctors in China, AKA as evidence of human to human transmission, the thing the Chinese regime claimed was not happening until three weeks after the Taiwanese tried to alert the W.H.O.
The context of Chinese doctors going through Taiwan to pass on that information is that the Chinese government was suppressing doctors from speaking up about the situation.
Further context is that the W.H.O., under pressure, or incentive, from the Chinese government, adheres to the One China policy that denies Taiwan exists as an independent country and has denied membership to the organization or necessary information related to the new virus to Taiwan, and apparently, blocking important information coming from Taiwan reaching other members of the W.H.O.

Everything in regards to China and the W.H.O. actions in that matter is objectionable even if limited to the scope of preventing the spread of COVID-19.
The only racism on display in this thread are China Man use of a racial slur, so what are you talking about?

52

The WHO adheres to the policy that only UN members can participate with it, as it is a UN organization. If you want Taiwan participating with WHO, the US could loudly demand their nation status recognized at the UN. But they won’t, because the United States under pressure, or incentive, adheres to the One China Policy. Just like everyone else.

53

Does the “everyone else” include yourself?

One of the reasons Taiwan is not in the UN is the threats China has made of invading the island if its status as an independent nation is ratified, in fact it’s part of China’s law that they will invade Taiwan in that case.
So the pressure being applied is China threatening to mount a military invasion of Taiwan which could escalate into a wider international conflict. Personally I think this form of political thuggery should be condemned.

For your information Article 3 of the World Health Organization states:
Membership in the Organization shall be open to all States.
So I’m going to presume that you pulled the “only UN members can join” out of thin air.

But this derailment is not directly germane to the topic.

54

Yes, nobody’s going to watch your video. Here are the reasons:

  1. Videos take too long to scan to the point. Nobody has time to sit through that.
  2. Videos have a tendency to color the facts with use of extra-factual production elements (editing, padding, music, lighting, misleading imagery). It’s harder to sift through the bullshit.

In short, nobody is ever going to watch your videos, and you should stop getting your information from video.

To your point… Is China lying about their COVID deaths? I can’t see an obvious motive to conceal this. If they downplay their numbers, they could end up with a worse problem than they started with. It seems like they have nothing to gain, and much to lose by lying about it.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure China would lie about the color of the sky if they saw advantage in it… I just don’t see any advantage that outweighs the potential harm to the party.

55

Read Article 4. A “State” is an entity that the UN accepts as a state.

56

Please show a cite where it is Chinese law to invade Taiwan, should Taiwan declare itself a de jeure independent nation? It’s been stated publicly many times and certainly in private, so more accurately it could be characterized as a policy.

It is my personal conspiracy theory that Taiwan has the bomb. And that long ago Taiwan made it clear that an invasion of Taiwan would mean that at least Shanghai and Nanjing and a few other major cities would cease to exist. Taiwan certainly has the technology and expertise to make nuclear bombs, they have multiple nuclear power plants, previously close ties with the US military and with S Africa so could have the fissionable materials.

The main reason Taiwan is not in the UN is because it never established being a de jeure independent nation. In fact, Taiwan is more or less considered a province of China by both China and Taiwan. Christ, Taiwan still claims sovereignty over Outer Mongolia. But it’s a lot more complicated than that. Here’s actually a decent wiki article you can wade thru: Political status of Taiwan - Wikipedia

So, at the time in 1971, my understanding was that Taiwan probably could have declared de facto independence and retained its seat in the UN. There was huge political backroom dealing with Taiwan basically throwing down the gauntlet of “if China joins, that means that Taiwan recognizes China as a independent country. The KMT in Taiwan is the only legitimate government of all China (including Outer Mongolia), and therefore if China joins the UN then we leave.”

When I first lived in the Republic of China in Taiwan in 1982, the whole island was under martial law, Chiang Kai-shek’s son Chiang Ching-kuo was still the ruler, the legislative body was comprised largely of folks who had been elected in the Mainland before fleeing in 1949 (many would be wheeled in on hospital beds with doctors attending in order to vote because they were so old and sick), Taiwan province had their own legislator as part of the whole body, “black hand” dissidents mysteriously fell out of 6F prisons, opposition parties were illegal. Obviously, much has changed in the nearly 4 decades since then. Now there are multiple political parties, independent demanding Taiwanese are not quite a majority, the de facto independent camp is larger, and frankly inter-marriage between the “local” native Taiwanese and those that fled in 1949 has changed much of the dynamic. Not to mention that up to 10% of the Taiwanese population work in China at any one time, and the economies have huge dependencies.

57

Article 4 doesn’t say what you claim it says which is why, I presume, you didn’t cite it:

Article 4
Members of the United Nations may become Members of the Organiza-tion by signing or otherwise accepting this Constitution in accordance with the provisions of Chapter XIX and in accordance with their constitutional processes.

You also made up the notion that a state is what the UN says a state is.
The Montevideo Convention:

[The convention sets out the definition, rights and duties of statehood. Most well-known is Article 1, which sets out the four criteria for statehood that have been recognized by international organizations as an accurate statement of customary international law:

*The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. *

…
As a restatement of customary international law, the Montevideo Convention merely codified existing legal norms and its principles and therefore does not apply merely to the signatories, but to all subjects of international law as a whole.](Montevideo Convention - Wikipedia)

The Anti-Secession Law is a law of the People’s Republic of China (PRC), passed by the 3rd Session of the 10th National People’s Congress. It was ratified on March 14, 2005, and went into effect immediately. President Hu Jintao promulgated the law with Presidential Decree No. 34.[1] Although the law, at ten articles, is relatively short, it was met with much controversy because** it formalized the long-standing policy of the PRC to use “non-peaceful means” against the “Taiwan independence movement” in the event of a declaration of independence.**

And again this is all a distraction from the OP, so well done to you two I guess.

58

Appreciate that link. I stand corrected that it is actually a law on the books in China. I had thought it was just long stated privately and publicly.

Regardless, the biggest reason that the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) is not a part of the UN goes back to the ROC refusing to recognize that they lost the civil war, and that Mainland China was the PRC.

Keep on spewing teh conspiracy theories. It doesn’t fucking matter because the US response to the coronavirus led by bone spurs is a travesty. Let’s focus on a good response here in the US of A, instead of playing the blame game and trying to rewrite the frankly criminal leadership by trump. The OP is a distraction from fighting this terrible scourge.

59

Basically, the OP boils down to the following points;

  1. Everyone knows that the dastardly Chinese are lying liars who lie about everything and are therefore lying about Covid as well, and we don’t have to prove this, because everyone knows it

  2. The WHO’s statements that contradict point 1 prove that the WHO is lying for the dastardly Chinese because they have been 100% bought out by their dirty dirty China money

  3. Anyone who disagrees with points 1 and 2 is only doing either because they are foolish fools who have been beguiled by the dastardly Chinese and their lying lies, or are lying on behalf of the dastardly Chinese because they have also been bought out by their dirty dirty China money

60

A nuclear-weapons program is immensely complex and couldn’t be pulled off in a nation like Taiwan without being found (not even North Korea managed to keep it secret.) Taiwan did have a nuke program in the 1980s (rumored to have gotten to the point of producing a chain reaction at Pingtung) but was pressured by the Reagan administration into stopping it (some shenanigans involved things such as nuclear facilities with secret trap doors to fool inspectors, etc.) A whistleblower, Chang Hsien-Yi, had taken a large trove of secret documents to the United States in 1987.

At any rate, the thread is getting derailed.