I’ve been reading a lot about some governments anger with the Chinese for their reaction to the outbreak. Undeniably, Chinese government initially ignored or repressed news of the problem exemplified by the famous arrest of the whistleblower doctor who later died. The biggest anger with the Chinese is that they may have then tried to downplay the seriousness of the virus itself, covering up numbers and effectively misleading the rest of the world into believing this is less serious than it actually is.
In Britain for instance, the government’s initial strategy was to shield the most vulnerable (the elderly and those with underlying health conditions) whilst allowing the rest of the population to gain an immunity. This appears to have been based on assessments of WHO and Chinese numbers built on the outbreak in Wuhan. However as they gained more of an understanding of the virus it became clear that this would be a highly problematic response. This article suggests the British government are furious with the Chinese government: Coronavirus: Boris Johnson's Government Furious With China
If this is true, this will inevitably be reflected by other governments such as Italy, Spain and the US.
How that plays out (if it does) is very interesting and also of interest is how this so-called “reckoning” might affect the WHO. The WHO worked very closely with the Chinese government and seems to have been in lock-step with the Chinese accounts of the outbreak. There will inevitably be a large scale review of what happened here including the WHO’s role. Will it be torn up? And if so will the powerful western states try to pull away from a centralised world body, or will perhaps the WHO as it exists today become much more important?
This whole thing shows that the world needs an organization like WHO. The idea of breaking it up or decentralizing it somehow is the exact opposite of the lessons to be learned.
Any mistakes need to be learned from and changes should be implemented based on those mistakes.
And China needs to be pressured to change a lot of what they do, including changes to their meat markets as well as political changes.
…this is nonsense distraction from a government that specialises in nonsense distractions. The plan was ridiculousfrom the outset. At the same time the UK were considering this disastrous plan New Zealand were preparing for lockdown based on the very same assessments of WHO, by how China dealt with the outbreak in Wuhan, based on the mistakes made in other countries, and due to factors unique to our own country. It takes balls for Boris & Co to blame everyone else for their own fuckup: but to hear that they are is not surprising in the least. If you want to blame anyone blame Dominic Cummings.
WHO isn’t perfect. But I’m not entirely sure you understand what it is they do and what their role is.
It SHOULD be torn up. The issue, though, is that not a lot of people seem to really be following the antics or the implications, unfortunately. It’s been clear for years that there is deep corruption of the WHO, and this crisis has really underscored that. As for your first paragraph, I actually think you are understating the CCPs criminal actions in the early phases of the crisis, or the impact the WHO had in basically blowing the CCP every chance they had to buff them up and make them a shinning example of what countries should strive for. I recall a video clip of a WHO official saying that if he had the virus, he’s want to have it in China. And the press…western press…lapped it up. And asked for more.
What might happen going forward? Depends. The narrative seems to be that the WHO has done a great job, that China with the CCPs firm but guiding hand are responsible for saving the world, blah blah blah. Which means nothing will be done, and we’ll get more of the same. If Trump is out, I don’t know what the next administration might do. Increase the US funding to the WHO perhaps (we fund them to the tune of around $5 billion a year, IIRC…about as much as China…but we don’t force them to drop to their knees and sing our praises or risk their funding).
If people actually start to pay attention, though, I’d say the WHO might be broken up, or, better yet, reformed. Get rid of (jail) the leadership, really look at their funding and where it’s being spent, increase that funding on the parts that are underfunded (such as, oh, the whole dealing with pandemics part) and crush the corrupt parts (like the administration). Whether that happens or not, I can’t say. Doesn’t seem likely.
I’m not sure you read that reference before using it. In any case, the situation in the UK and in NZ was, and is, completely different. It was, and is, already too late to do contact tracing in the UK, and the “disastrous plan” to not expect contact tracing to prevent endemic infection was, and is, an observation, neither a plan nor ridiculous.
The suggestion that the “same assessments” should lead to the same behavior is on par with the idea that people in self-isolation at home should all be on ventilators, because some people in ICU in hospital are on ventilators.
…of course I read it. It was a cite from March the 16th: its relevant because even at the time of the announcement the plan had huge and obvious flaws. We all knew it was going to be a disaster as soon as it was announced. The spin from the Ministers in that cite are laughable. We all heard what was originally said.
The point of the comparison is that we were all working of the exact same information. It was only “too late” for the UK because the UK acted too late. The disastrous plan, in case you weren’t aware, was abandoned a day after the Atlantic article, because the plan was just completely fucking stupid.
Strawman. I’m well aware that the plan here has been tailored specifically for our particular circumstances. The point is the UK read those very same assessments and the what they decided to do was really fucking stupid. When they finally realised that the plan was really fucking stupid they had already lost valuable time. They can’t blame that on WHO or China which is what this thread is all about. They did it to themselves.
My dislike and distrust of The United Nations and anything related to it makes me biased but WHO, as it is, is incompetent, corrupt, and unreliable. WHO’s decisions and proclamations, even before this pandemic, is based on politics and (Chinese) money and this alone makes them irrelevant. Add in the facts that there is no accountability and little transparency, WHO is nothing more than a bureaucratic machine operating for the sake of looking they are doing something. I’d be happy to see their funding cut and have them disbanded.
…yes, China will be paying $57,439,805 to WHO for the calendar year 2020-2021. Of course the United States will owe $57,883,460. That amount is assessed and calculated relative to a countries wealth and population. So on assessed funding: shouldn’t it be US money we should be worrying about? They are supposed to be the biggest contributor after all.
But that would of course depend on America paying its bills. Which we can see in this 2019 article it isn’t very good at. So if WHO is struggling to do what it needs to do then perhaps the United States should step up and pays it bills on time. WHO have included their bank account details if you would like to pass the invoice on. Please ensure you use the reference number WHO-AC-202, no post-dated cheques please, direct deposit prefered. If America is so concerned about the influence of “Chinese money” then perhaps they should stop sitting on the sidelines, pay their dues and take part in the process.
Can you quantify the lack of accountability and the lack of transparency? What is it you would like to know that you couldn’t find out with a bit of searching of their website? Do you actually know what it is that WHO does, do you know what countries it operates in them, and if they were disbanded then who would do the work in their stead? Do you think that WHO is more or less incompetent, corrupt, and unreliable as the current United States administration? (Which last I heard was insinuating doctors and nurses in New York were walking hospital masks out the back door). Once we finish shutting down WHO, should we begin shutting down the US Federal Government, the House and then the Senate?
You’re missing the point. The WHO shouldn’t be kowtowing to any one member state or faction, and its favours shouldn’t be able to be bought by way of funding. Any agency that purports to act in the best interest of the world needs to be fair, impartial, and rise above political agendas.
Congratulations, a false dilemma, a red herring and a slippery slope all rolled into one. Feel free to add some righteous indignation while you’re at it.
You can’t quantify accountability or transparency; you measure it by asking who does the WHO answer to for their decisions and actions? How does WHO take responsibility for them and what consequences do they face? What mechanism exists to address WHO’s inaction, lack of response, or an err in action?
As for transparency, how are priorities established within their mandates and how is that demonstrated? How much of their funds are allocated to what projects and how is that determined? What is the criteria for WHO to collaborate with non-state actors? What is the nature of their relationship and how are they accredited? These kinds of questions need to be answered to show that WHO acts as a nonpartisan and not in the interest of particular groups.
…you are missing the point. You are making the claim that the WHO is kowtowing to a member state or faction, you are **making a claim **that its favours have been bought in the way of funding, you are making the claim that WHO isn’t acting in the best interest of the world and that it isn’t acting in a fair, impartial way, and isn’t rising above political agenda.
Yet you have provided zero evidence that it does so.
No false dilemma, no red herring, no slippery slope, and for good measure no righteous indignation.
Why should we be worrying more about “Chinese money” than “US money?”
Asking your to quantify **is **asking you to measure accountability and transparency. Yet you can’t do it. Just Asking Questions isn’t measuring accountability, you are Just Asking Questions.
Just Asking Questions again. I suspect if I do a bit of googling I could probably answer all of these questions. But I’m not doing your work for you.
You need to demonstrate these questions **haven’t **been answered if you want me to take your rant about dismantling WHO seriously. Because a handful of questions (that probably have answers) isn’t much of an argument.
It’s kind of hard to do, as most main stream media sources aren’t addressing this. At a guess, any evidence presented to you is going to be rejected. Really, all the data is there to see for anyone who actually looks. Sadly, most aren’t…or deliberately don’t. I will address one part of your reply, however, as though it’s a no brainer, it cuts to the root of this issue.
Simply, because US money doesn’t come with any strings attached wrt forcing a narrative. While, pretty obviously, Chinese money does and always has. Again, the evidence is pretty much out there for anyone to see. You can see it in how the CCP puts pressure on companies to comply with it’s Taiwan policies. You can see it in how the CCP puts pressure on companies to comply with it’s narrative on Hong Kong. You can see it in how the CCP manipulates politicians across the board in other countries, including the US. It’s there to see…if you bother looking. And it’s clear that they have done the same thing with the WHO. The evidence is there. But I think it’s useless to present it to you, because it’s not going to be from sources you consider valid. And the reason that is cuts to the heart of this whole thing…because many of the sources you consider valid are ALSO being pressured by the CCP to do or say things the CCP wants said. Or does not want said or discussed.
Yeah, this is real CT territory. Trust me, I see the irony, since I’ve fought against CTs on this board for years, and take pride in taking them down and joining in the fight against ignorance. But on this subject, ignorance has already won, because the primary institutes that could or would fight it gave in to that sweet, sweet China money. The very fact that you can, presumably with a straight face, even ask the question I quoted here pretty much demonstrates that, and from someone who is respected on this board for the fight against ignorance. On this subject, IMHO, this board has failed. It’s a great frustration to me that folks are playing petty political infighting games while the CCP runs rampant, but it is what it is.
…link dumps without context is rarely helpful: especially if one of those links is to the Federalist (which I’ve already read as it has been cited multiple times in other places) . The third cite is paywalled for me, and the first cites non committal headline (“Coronavirus: How China’s increasing global power **could **be influencing global virus response”) doesn’t really inspire me to read more.
But I did: and the cite points out that China only contributes a fraction of the amount of money compared to what the UK and the US actually did. And the article cites Prof Trudie Lang who says “The WHO does a really good job of trying to genuinely represent all member states”, and there isn’t much there in the article that contradicts this. Could WHO have handled this current crisis better? Sure. But the claims in this thread aren’t just about the virus response.
This isn’t a failure of the board. If you can’t make a case to back up your assertions then you have simply failed to make your case. That isn’t our fault.
IIRC, China gives around $5 billion (that we know of), compared to around $50 billion the US gives. Know what’s different? Where the money goes and whether the money will get cut off or not. That makes China’s $5 billion (no counting under the table stuff, just what they acknowledge…not that China would ever lie or anything) weigh more with the administrative parts of the WHO than the US funding. Or the UK funding.
If the WHO hadn’t done what they did initially wrt the information and response in China, then we wouldn’t be where we are today wrt this cluster fuck. Full stop. This isn’t about politics in the US and conservatives verse liberals, it’s about corruption of a major international body that has had a direct impact on the world.
You are right. I can’t make a case, because what I’d use is similar to stuff you already handwaved away and dismissed with a few words. It’s not your fault, or the boards fault…you only know what you’ve been told by media you trust. Of course, I could point out how many times people say (rightfully so IMHO) the same thing about those brainwashed by Fox News or other conservative media, so the irony is pretty heavy. But I do concede…the fault is mine and the people who have tried and failed to get people to understand how grave the situation is wrt what the CCP is doing in general, but specifically has done to make this crisis what it is today. And the WHO has been right in their pocket, giving them legitimacy with people like you.