This sort of false-dichotomy straw-man is not helpful. It’s perfectly possible to cast reasonable doubt on ***some ***Chinese claims, given China’s long history of deceit, without being tinfoil hat wearers.
Nobody says China lies about every single thing, just like nobody in the village claimed the boy who cried wolf was a 100% liar on 100% of things. But on many important things, Beijing has.
I have no idea what it takes to do a nuclear weapons program. Like I wrote, it’s my own conspiracy theory. Obviously, if Taiwan was successful, no own would own up to it publicly. BUT with a belligerent huge neighbor, plenty of smart PhD’s, a war chest, a strong civilian nuclear program, serious connections with S Africa for decades, I sure have heck would have put together some bombs for a MAD scenario. Again, I have no knowledge or proof, but am skeptical that this never came to fruition…
Seems pretty spot on to me. If I get motivated, will start a GD on this topic. Stay tuned.
No, I agree with Smapti’s summary. There are at least 3 people in this thread (manson1972, XT, Saturn Dreams) that have made the argument that the CPC / CCP always lies and how could anyone with “half a brain” believe anything they say?
There is no nuance here. If anyone was saying “Let’s not blindly accept the official figures, but look at the actual evidence”, I’d be on board. But it’s just “China said it, so it must be false, and whatever conspiracy I can think of must be true”.
Sadly, I think things are going to get much worse before they potentially get any better.
This thread is actually pretty tame compared to some of the parallel threads where people have said stuff like:
“I’m not interested in hearing the opinions of anyone Chinese or profiting from China”
“Chinese passport holders should not be allowed in the US”
“China is the enemy, and needs to be politically isolated and destroyed economically”
(all are paraphrased but I can find the actual quotes if you need them for your new thread)
Oh, I’ve read all of the above quotes. I have also heard the fear that some Asians in the US harbor. Try telling some bigot I’m Korean and not Chinese, and see how that works out for ya.
I don’t know why anyone expects perfect data out of China? It’s not possible. Hopefully the covid 19 is reasonably accurate, and highlights the trends. And I will admit there may be some minor fudging along the lines of “we only had 2 new cases today, let’s put off reporting that to tomorrow so we can have some positive news.” And there is certainly a lack of testing. Not everyone gets tested, especially during the overwhelming period.
The US has it’s own issues with un[URL=“https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB12bSIa?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare”]dercounting or incompleteness. It’s a lot more important to try save those with a chance and test those still alive since there is a testing shortage, than to focus on making sure the daily body count is 100% accurate.
Gatekeeping much? I made one post in this thread countering another poster’s assurance that the WHO can’t be lying because their numbers match up with the Chinese. How does this get escalated to me claiming the Chinese lie about everything?
You know, it’s possible to think that official government statements by China are not true without believing in conspiracy theories.
So these are the statements that to me suggested closed thinking and the implication that the CPC lies about everything
I will admit that the one from Saturn Dreams doesn’t necessarily imply that the chinese government always lies, so I take that one back. In this thread at least.
But in answer to his rhetorical question, no, I haven’t heard a reputable source claim that the WHO was acting only in Chinese interests and/or parroting the Chinese government.
China fudging numbers is not a theory, it’s part of the historical record, back in mid February:
[Officials in China’s Hubei province revealed Thursday that new cases of COVID-19 had surged nearly 10-fold from the day before—reversing days of declines that experts said were a positive sign for the containment of the virus. The number of deaths increased dramatically, as well, to 242.
The jump in new cases—more than 14,800 in the province at the epicenter of the outbreak—is due to a change in the criteria for counting diagnoses of the virus.](Why China's Huge Increase in New COVID-19 Cases Is a Step in the Right Direction | TIME)
And a few days ago:
The issue is not whether they have provided unreliable data, it’s whether they’ve done it on purpose, whether they are still doing it now and to what extent.
One step forward, one step back. In which thread(s) have I stated, implied or otherwise, that the CCP always lies?
Pray tell, for reference’s sake, what the standards are to be accepted as a “reputable source”?
So your proof that China is lying about the numbers is that they’re adjusting their methodology to make the numbers more accurate.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
What I mean is, I’ve debated with you on covid on other threads, so there are things you’ve said that I disagree with, clearly, but that’s not something to bring to this thread.
Well you’re the one making a claim, so we begin with you providing a cite.
I went through my post history for the last couple of weeks and I found our discussion about face masks but I can’t find and record of us debating about COVID-19. What thread are you referring to?
More importantly, you’ve claimed that I stated that the CCP always lies. You retracted it for “…this thread at least”. So my question stands. In which thread or post did I make such a claim?
Let’s keep you on the straight and narrow. Please define what a “reputable source” is first so I can get it one and not have to deal with your whimsical dismissals.
I posted cites showing Taiwan warned the WHO that there was human to human transmission of the virus yet two weeks later the WHO still pushed the Chinese claim that there was no evidence of human to human transmission even though there were known cases of doctors contracting the virus from patients.
This article lays down at length the situation of the WHO and the influence China, and other countries, exert, but the current situation boils down to this:
The current WHO chief got there by pandering to China, and it shows.
None. The meaning of the statement was I didn’t want to just say “you’ve never said that” without actually checking all of the other ongoing threads, because I did recall you and I having some debates.
But fine, I take it back, period. I apologize for including you in the list of people that said that.
I was going to respond to this with a definition, but we’re just going to get deflected.
So let’s waive the reputable source thing, and get on with the cite.
Whatever you post next, I won’t make any suggestion that the author / publication is unreliable, we can just discuss the contents.
You claimed I said or implied something I didn’t say or imply, but when pressed for evidence for said claim, you back track with the caveat “at least not in this thread”. When pressed again for evidence in any thread, your position was the claim remains true until you had done all your fact-checking and were satisfied it was never said. Do I have this right? If so, I have a question for you. Would you consider yourself as a reputable and fair source of information?
Apology appreciated but not necessary. I don’t think you had any bad intentions. Just a mistake that you compounded with another mistake that was based on a dishonest premise to assume guilt until proven otherwise. Please do be careful in the future.
Fair enough. Just to let you know, I understand not all sources are credible and if someone tried citing something from the National Enquirer, I’d blast them too.
Anyway, here’s an article from the US version of The Spectator providing some evidence of WHO’s impartiality to China.
Cite?
Few if any doubt that China is fudging its numbers; the question is: By how much? I don’t know but tend to give more credence to our own well-informed China Guy than to a YouTuber who insists on referring to the “CCP virus.” (The GOP may end up causing more virus deaths than even the CCP: Should we call it the “GOP virus”? :smack:)
Thailand’s government is also probably pushing numbers much lower than the reality, but they’re too incompetent to get away with much lying! Anyway, they are imposing very strict containment rules and mandatory masks.
As someone else pointed out above thread, there is a strange double standard between how this board treats Russia and China.
Talk of how Russian hackers/trolls influenced the 2016 American elections or spread disinformation, etc - no problem.
Talk about how China is a regime that locks up a million Muslims in concentration camps, or has a history of deceit, or cracked down on internal virus whistleblowers - one must be a jingoistic American, or a xenophobe, or a Chinaphobe.
Yeah it’s almost like different things are different things.
All the US intelligence agencies concluded that Russia had interfered in the 2016 with numerous examples cited.
Meanwhile with China’s death toll, the kind of things that people are speculating about would leave a huge amount of evidence, and yet none is forthcoming, only counter evidence.
Also, listing other terrible things the chinese government has done is off-topic, since everyone agrees that the chinese government has lied and has committed atrocities. It’s like if I showed up to any thread about US politics and starting going on about Vietnam, or Iraq, or whatever, when those aren’t the topic of the thread.
The point you’re missing is the one I mentioned upthread: the Chinese government does not always lie, or indeed even mostly. So just saying “Look! Chinese government!” is insufficient proof of anything on its own, contrary to popular belief.
@Saturn Dreams I’ll come back to your post. The actual spectator article is high on opinion and low on details, but it does allude to other articles that might contain some substance (e.g. washington post’s report), so I’m going to leave that recursive reading to tomorrow.
US intelligence also said China concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak.
What’s the difference between “evidence” and “counter evidence”?
Except it’s not about their human rights abuses or crimes against their own people; it’s about their cover ups and their habit of not being forthright with the “truth”. This has set a pattern of behavior and is fair to be used as a counter to those that say believe China.
Stop being so dramatic. No one is literally saying China “always” lies and that would be a difficult proposition to prove. Dismissing everything coming out of China is just as foolish as accepting them at face value.
Take your time.