I would also like to add that the “gun control advocates” in this thread are fucking morons. Every single argument from the OP to dragonash to ElvisLives just now. All of if it. It’s nothing but “Won’t somebody think of the children?!!!” I can’t even count the number of logical fallacies in those posts. Straw men, tu quoques, ad hominems, “no true scotsman”, you name it.
I find it a bit odd that I, as in me, am the only one to propose solutions. And I don’t even hate guns!
Respect for human life is not a logical position, no. It’s a *moral *one. The most basic moral one there is. One universally accepted as such by the mentally healthy.
You derisively handwave it away, however. There isn’t much else one can conclude about your fitness to carry a weapon, is there?
And the problem with thinking of the children is…? Gotta admit, I’ve never figured this one out.
When you are finished patting yourself on the pee-pee, would you please answer my questions? They are pretty relevant to your vaunted solutions.
If you are able to, that is.
No, it’s because you’re fucking lying. When anything actually proposed along even *those *meager lines comes up, you find some reason *not *to support it.
So cut the shit. You’re *not *in favor of actually doing those things or any others at all. Your continued pretense otherwise, your indifference to whether or not what you say is true, is symptomatic of psychopathy.
What do you propose to do?. I have asked this repeatedly from your compatriots. What do you propose should be done? You are committing the fallacy of Irreverent Appeal. All the posts from your side don’t actually put anything forth. Give me a fucking plan. How hard is that to understand? Give me a fucking plan besides “guns are bad”.
I’m sorry I missed your question earlier. It was an honest mistake. By “focus on mental health” I meant just that. But that gets in to health care, which, speaking as an RN in the US, is pretty fucked up. There is simply not enough psych support. I could bitch about that, but it would be a different thread. My point was that instead of looking at how somebody shoots a bunch of people, it might be more effective to look at why?
What the fuck could be more relevant? :rolleyes: Sicko.
You’re not getting it. Basic human morality is not subject to logic. Only those who lack the ability to comprehend what a moral code is could say what you are saying.
It would be even more effective to look at whether. The survivors would appreciate it.
You demand to know what I want done? Only what every other civilized country does. That includes disarming the mentally ill.
So there’s essentially no solution in your solution? Just shouting “mental health” solves the gun violence problem?
I’m comforted by your resolving that the “how” of gun violence doesn’t matter, just the “why.” I am sure that the families of victims will think everything is squared away when you tell them the “why.”
Pro tip - you should at least be able to identify some aspect of “mental health” let alone how “mental health” will solve gun violence in order to suggest that you’ve offered a solution to the problem.
Did you know that over the lifespan, 50% of the population will experience a mental illness? I’m eager to see how “mental health” solves the problem.
I have, repeatedly, in these damn gun threads.
[ul]
[li]No open carry.[/li][li]Concealed carry only with a court order after justifying a need due to a specific threat.[/li][li]Universal gun registration and liability insurance requirement for possession. [/li][li]A number of smaller things, but those are the biggies, from my perspective.[/li][/ul]
Oh shut the fuck up. I posted something reasonable, i.e. saying that it’s probable that people who commit mass killings did it because they have mental problems. You, apparently, have a problem with that. I don’t know why, but I suppose that you don’t actually have a problem with expanding mental health care, rather, you just want to be an argumentative asshole.
Presumption of innocence? Free speech? Who cares, right? As long as you can save one life, those things don’t matter. It’s for the children, after all.
So your solution turns out to be “Don’t ask me to explain my solution!”
Fucking dumbass.
Jesus, I don’t have any words for you. I’m fucking apoplectic at your reading comprehension and stupidity. My solution is a cap on the number of guns owned, a longer waiting period, and greater funding for mental health care. Those are just starting points.
You, because you are an argumentative asshole, won’t even examine those ideas. You, because you are in the pit, think calling me “dumbass” is an intelligent comment. It’s not.
That’s exactly what I’m doing, stupid. I’m trying to examine your idea about “mental health”. I’ve repeatedly asked you to explain, and all you can do is go apoplectic.
Can you say which types of mental illness are related to gun violence? There is more than one.
Can you say which mental health care treatment would prevent gun violence? There is more than one.
Can you say what aspect of treatment would prevent gun violence? That is, are you going to mandate participation in care? Are you going to mandate assessments? Which assessment results are going to result in what treatment, at what level of intensity, for which duration?
No. I said it because you’re a dumbass. You think saying “mental health” is a solution, but despite repeated inquiries, you cannot articulate a single aspect of mental illness that would relate to an explanation for gun violence or any plausible prevention strategy.
Yet, somehow you know the “why” is the key, rather than, you know, the fact that they had a fucking gun.
Fucking dumbass.
Oh Godamnit. You have fallen in my estimation. I do not have the solution to mental health. I fully admit that.
Are you happy now?
I thought I was accusing ElvisLives of strawmanning every gun rights advocate as being a extreme or radical gun rights advocate.
We haven’t established that there are more gun murders because of legal gun ownership, you can’t just assume this away. You can’t blame legal gun owners for the gun crimes committed by people who cannot legally own guns. So first prove that there are more gun murders committed by legally owned guns than there are lives saved by legally owned guns. THEN put those corpses on the doorstep of gun rights advocates.
And we all pay the price for freedom, the risk that someone else will abuse their freedom is borne by every man woman and child in America.
Yes, straw purchases are a problem (I see straw purchases as THE problem) and I can see how licensing and registration would help us deal with the problem. What I don’t see is how limiting the number of guns takes us much further than mere licensing and registration.
Or are you just talking about straw sales to Mexican drug cartels? We havent really talked about that issue very much and I don’t know if registration would work as well for guns sold to Mexican drug cartels but why wouldn’t the Mexican government share firearm serial numbers when they seize guns from the Mexican drug cartels. Don’t they have as much of an interest in stopping these straw sales as we do?
I guess what I’m asking is why mere licensing and registration doesn’t fix the problem without the added layer of limiting the number of guns owned.
Here is how I expect licensing and registration to work. Everyone who wants a gun has to get a license (we can quibble about the requirements for licensing but I expect it will be a written exam on gun safety and gun laws perhaps with heightened requirements concealed carry). This license gives you the right to purchase and possess. We eliminate all state and local gun laws and implement a federal standard so taht the gun you can legally carry concealed in Texas can be legally carried concealed in California.
You cannot lend or give a gun to anyone that doesn’t have a license so your buddy cannot borrow your gun unless he shows you his license and grandpa can’t give his grandson a gun without seeing his license (I can imagine a case where a grandson is a felon but noone has the heart to tell the grandfather and the grandafther gives his felon grandson a gun for his birthday). You have to register every gun you own and de-register every gun you transfer (giving the name and gun license number of the transferee), a gun shop will do this for you for a fee if you can’t be arsed to get on the internet and do it yourself (there will be some antique guns that will be difficult to register (no serial numbers) and will require some sort of special rule, muskets and shit like that).
This will make it much easier to track down straw sellers and that should deter straw sales generally. Of course it won’t eliminate straw sales entirely but it will go a hell of a lot further than an assault weapons ban towards reducing gun violence.
I had been veering towards only registering handguns but the Mexican cartel problem is making me think that registering all guns makes sense again.
BTW, Mexico has pretty restrictive gun laws and even they permit 10 guns.
For what it’s worth, while this doesn’t totally solve the question in my eyes, it seems entirely reasonable to this generally anti-gun guy. My one thought would be, what do we use as the stick for unregistered transfers? Is it a standard penalty - let’s say a fine, or some kind of temporary ban on purchasing new guns - or do we “upgrade” that if the unregistered new owner commits a crime using that gun? I can’t immediately think of something that seems fair.
Rolling tape, you said:
Seems pretty clear: you’re saying that if all gun owners were like Ted Nugent and Wayne LaPierre, he’d have an argument. But it’s the falsity of that claim that makes it a strawman.
Sure I can. For one thing, very few gun murders are committed in countries where owning guns is heavily restricted or illegal altogether.
Sure I can. Watch me.
It’s widespread legal gun ownership that’s the underlying problem, and it’s widespread legal gun ownership that makes it so easy for the relative handful of people who aren’t allowed to own guns to acquire them anyway.
Along with, of course, the refusal of that vast majority of legal gun owners and the organizations that represent them to sanction measures that would make it more difficult to obtain guns illegally, like closing the gun show and private sale loopholes in the background check laws that make it easy for people forbidden to own guns to buy them from those who can own them.
Legal gun owners are the root cause of violence committed by people who can’t legally own guns.
Yeah, but that sacred right to gun ownership is the only one that random citizens pay the price for, day in and day out.
How’s this for a deal? We require every gun owner to put his or her name in the equivalent of a big hat. When some person who doesn’t own guns gets killed, we execute one of the gun owners at random. Then the bloody price of gun rights is paid equally by those who own guns and those who don’t.
Betcha don’t like that idea, do you? Neither do I, actually. It’s what you call a thought experiment. But at least then it would be gun owners who in every instance would be the ones dying for their precious rights, along with those of us who have no interest in that right.
How about mandatory state and local reporting to NICS for anyone that qualifies as mentally adjudicated as defined by the BATFE, felons, and disqualifying misdemeanors. Then, require all sales to go through NICS check, and open up NICS checks to the general public and online.
That’s what focusing on mental health could look like. It will reduce the amount of firearms purchased by prohibited persons.
What would you trade to get that?
Cite. Or just shut the fuck up. You constantly pull shit out of your ass and if you weren’t such an asshole while you were being so wrong, I could attribute it to error but its obvious you’re just an asshole that will say whatever the fuck pops into his head.
So, why do I constantly debate other gun rights advocates like Bone and others about the topic? Why the fuck would I want to pretend to anything on an anonymous board? This is why you can’t hang in great debates.
The problem is that you seem to think that anyone that wants a gun is mentally ill.
Right now we disarm people who are more likely to commit murder if they have a gun (felons, wifebeaters, the mentally ill, minors, etc. Who else do you think we should disarm?
IOW you are full of shit and you can’t ever admiot to being wrong about anything because you would have to admit that you are wrong about everything. America has fewer murders per capita than the civilized world, they have more than other wealthy industrialized nations.
Almost none of the gun control folks can last very long in great debates so they come here and mostly just curse and rant and rave about how evil gun owners are.
Elvis is a well known idiot in pretty much every thread in which he posts (its not just gun threads) but because he is a liberal he gets away with being a stupid asshole because by pure fucking coincidence of being a liberal he just happens to be on the right side of many arguments and when he says stupid shit he gets a pass because this is a fairly liberal board. if he had been born and raised in a conservative environemnt, he would give Louie Gohmert a run for his money.
Hentor nitpicks your arguments without really presenting any of his own. His main argument is that you want to kill babies and you’re a stupid dickface.
There is one guy that constantly goes on about how an alarm system is better than a gun and that everyone should move into safer neighborhoods if they are so scared of their neighbors.
Insults are their primary form of argument.
Can you prove that legal guns murder more people than they save? I thought not. You really don’t give a shit about lives, you just want to get rid of the guns that scare you so shitless.
Unless your end point is the banning and confiscation of all guns, it doesn’t matter to them.
If they couldn’t insult you they would have to admit that there are some solutions that don’t involve the banning and confiscation of all guns. They don’t take kindly to anything that might distract people from the ultimate solution of banning and confiscating all guns.
You mean you can’t identify all the crazy people in the country and yet you have the audacity to propose that we try harder to identify the ones that can be identified, share mental health information with the ATF, make mental health more of a priority in our health care system when it is almost certain that these things are still going to let a few Newtown shooters slip through the cracks? Obviously your idea is stupid.:rolleyes:;)
Unregistered transfers? Why not apply the same penalty we have for straw purchase:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-dont-lie-campaign.html
Up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000.
Does that work for you? Maybe its too harsh in some cases but there is a lot of prosecutorial discretion so you don’t have to go for 10 year sentences every time.
I think failure to register a gun should be subject to lower penalties because there are going to be a lot of idiots who can’t be bothered to register their guns because they’re too busy picking lint out of their bleey button and we don’t really want to send those lazy idiots to jail, just try to get them to comply.
Failure to register a gun: First offense, loss of the gun and a fine. Second offense, loss of the gun, higher fine, misdemeanor up to 30 days in jail. Third offense, loss of gun, even higher fine, felony, one year in jail (suspended sentence possible), loss of all gun rights. Or something along those lines. YMMV.
I don’t think that is true. Its true of wealthy industrialized countries where the crimnals don’t have guns, not so true of countries where the criminals are well armed.
A lot of countries with very high gun murder rates have very restrictive gun laws.
Look at Mexico, very restrictive gun laws, very high gun murder rate. Its like that all throughout central and south america. Lots of gun laws, well armed criminals, lots of gun murders.
And why doesn’t that widespread gun ownership cause problems in places like Israel and Swizterland? Oh because they are more heavily regulated? So its not widespread gun ownership, is it? Perhaps licensing and registration might slow the flow of guns from legal hands to criminal hands.
The vast majority of legal gun owners support more background checks. heck most NRA members support more background checks.
BTW, do you think the Manchin Toomey required background checks for all private sales? You can’t really enforce that without a registration requirement (you now, like the one that i keep harping on about).
No they’re not. Thats like blaming pro-choice activists for the murders committed by Kermit Gosnell. Unless they are selling their guns to people who shouldn’t have them, how are they at fault?
Random people pay daily for our right to drive. Random people pay for our right to drink.
No its what you call stupid.
Random people already includes gun owners.
Now you’re just ranting.