Another "debunk this" thread...this time about the Confederates and Southerners

My brother lived in Kentucky for a few years, and about a year or so in the Carolinas. This, of course, means (to him) that he is an expert on all things Rebel/Confederate. And I, as a dirty liberal, have of course been drinking the Kool-aid[sup]*[/sup] and not done any independent thought[sup]**[/sup], so I am obviously just able to parrot talking points while the Conservatives know the REAL story behind everything.

So, if y’all would, please help me dissect the following:

I’m sure some of this is fairly easy to debunk. I have no idea of where to start. I DO know that Anthony Johnson was sold as an indentured servant, which would seem to poke holes in his being the first slave-owner.

[sup]*I pointed out to him that it was actually Flavor-aid that Jonestown used in their mass suicide. He didn’t care.
**Why is it that only the Left can be under the influence of the Kool-aid? Why can’t it be that the Right gets brainwashed?[/sup]

Mods, if you feel this would be better served in a different forum, feel free to move it. I chose GD because of the recent controversy surrounding the flag.

I’m going to assume “north” means “union” here, because northern states didn’t have slavery in 1861 (the south and the Confederacy were not quite the same thing). The emancipation proclamation did not free slaves in the union states that still had slavery. They were freed as “contraband of war” under what Lincoln claimed as his war powers. Lincoln never claimed the power to simply abolish slavery unilaterally, and attempting to do so would have pushed those remaining states to secede anyways.

If the South didn’t rise to preserve slavery, and it was just a generic States Rights issue, I’d like to know why northern states didn’t care about their rights.

Because the war wasn’t fought over freeing the slaves, it was over states rights in the end, as well as the slave ISSUE with new states and how that balanced the power between slave and non-slave states. And Abe didn’t free all the slaves because he hoped for a peaceful settlement and to be able to re-incorporate the rebellious states back into the Union as easily as could be managed. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to free them, but political realities being what they were he knew if he did this it would mean a fight to the finish. He eventually came to the realization it was going to be that anyway, so you get the emancipation proclamation.

Whoever wrote the explanation is using half truths and outright fabrications in order to try and spin things their way, relying on folks to be pretty shaky on their Civil War history.

We weren’t taught a LOT of details about the Civil War in any US school, and they made up a pretty small part and weren’t approved by the Confederacy until pretty late in the game…1865, which happens to be the year the war ended. They were basically a footnote…a few thousand blacks fought on the rebels side for various reasons, verse several hundred thousand on the union side.

The explanation here is even more bullshit and is again an attempt to spin things (very badly) by relying on his or her audience to be ignorant and shocked that any black soldiers fought for the Confederacy.

Again, a lot of details aren’t taught in US schools for history, which is not considered a very important subject. Think back on your own history experience in grade or high school and tell me…how much did you learn? Sure, there were (a very few) black slave owners. There were free blacks in the south as well. But they were pretty sparse compared to the vast majority, which were very wealthy white land owners.

Again, a load of BS for spin on the ‘answer’ here.

Most of those points are not particularly wrong although I have never heard about the Anthony Johnson trivia and have no opinion on that. Slavery is still depicted in most high school and lower history books in an overly simple way. All of the original 13 colonies had legal slavery and that added up to lots of years and slaves even in the Northern states. New York state barely has more time as a free area today than it had legal slavery but you don’t hear that mentioned much. New England, particularly Rhode Island and Boston were some of the most active slave trading and auction ports even after the U.S. was founded as an independent nation. Some of that was geographic because it is an odd fact that New England is closer to West Africa than the South or any other area of the U.S.

My home state of Louisiana had a very complicated racial structure during antebellum history and some of it still exists to this day. There weren’t just blacks and whites. It was broken down even in legal code so a person could be many things including a quadroon (1/4 black) and octoroon (1/8 black) and several other very specific racial terms. However, Louisiana also had many ‘free men of color’ from all categories and some of them were quite wealthy and owned slaves of their own. They tended to be loyal to the South during the Civil War because they had just as much to lose as any other wealthy people.

The Emancipation Proclamation is legitimate objection in my opinion as well as the overall point that some Union states still had slavery during the Civil War and some were among the last to truly abolish it after the passage of the 13th amendment. There isn’t a good way to counter that except to acknowledge that Lincoln was very pragmatic when it came to slavery. His goal was to maintain the Union above all else. If that required keeping slavery, he would have been all in. He also didn’t want to instigate any addition trouble from the Union territories that still had slavery so they got to keep it even during the Civil War as long as they were good citizens otherwise.

There are really two sides to this general question and they have different answers. Contrary to popular belief, the Union in general wasn’t fighting to end slavery. True abolitionists were a vocal minority but not the real driving force for the Union. Even most abolitionists had views that would still be considered horribly racist today. The goal of the Union was to preserve the unity of the United States above all else with or without slavery.

However, back down in the largely agrarian South, almost all of the ‘state’s rights’ arguments can eventually be traced back to the issue of slavery. I would argue that it was more economic than truly racially motivated although the two get hopelessly intertwined. The vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves but the richer people they depended on usually did and people believed that the entire economy and social structure they had built up over time would collapse if millions of slaves were freed at the same time. They were not wrong about that either. The Civil War itself certainly made things much worse for the transition but the decades long Reconstruction period was incredibly painful, mismanaged and sometimes predatory by outsiders.

The pro-slavery side was against certain states’ rights, such as the right of a non-slave state to offer sanctuary to slaves inside its borders. The pro-slavery side wanted to compel non-slave states to arrest and return refugee slaves.

If they really gave one god damn for states’ rights, the Fugitive Slave Act would never have been enacted or enforced.

Modern revisionists cry “states’ rights” when it suits them, and hold a fastidious silence when it does not.

Anthony Johnson was actually the second slaveholder in Virginia (probably not actually true, but close enough.) Johnson was an Angolan Christian, originally named Antonio, sold in Angola to Arab slave traders, who then was sold as an indentured servant to a guy in the Virginia colony named Mr. Bennet. At that time, Christians couldn’t be held as indentured servants in Virginia for more than seven years. He married another servant of Mr. Bennett, an African woman named Mary, and then, after 7 years, as per the indenture contract, he was set free, (around 1635) and got a grant of a fairly large amount of land on what’s now Northhampton County on the Eastern Shore.

Jump ahead to 1653. Johnson has a black servant named John Casor. Casor goes to one of Johnson’s neighbors and says “My term of indenture is up. He’s keeping me here illegally. I want to serve a contract of indenture with you.”, and he does. When Johnson finds out about this, he sues the neighbor, and the court sides with Johnson, saying that Casor is Johnson’s servant for life, he has to stay with him. This is generally seen as the beginning of black slavery in Virginia, although there was an earlier black servant the courts decided was a “lifetime servant”, a guy named John Punch, who was sentenced to lifetime servitude as a result of an escape attempt.

About five years later, as racial attitudes were hardening in Virginia, somebody cheats Johnson out of 100 acres of land (the guy says Johnson wrote him a letter giving him the hundred acres and the court agrees, even though Johnson was illiterate and didn’t know how to write), and he moves to Maryland.

If the Civil War wasn’t fought over slavery, why did the Confederates and their sympathizers at the time keep insisting that it was being fought over slavery?

The State of Mississippi: “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.”

The Vice President of the Confederate States: “Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition.”

The Governor of Arkansas: “The extension of slavery is the vital point of the whole controversy between the North and the South…”

The Governor of Kentucky (Confederate faction): “…the abolition dictatorship of Abraham Lincoln…”

Northern “Copperhead” Congressman Clement Vallandigham: “But slavery is the cause of the war. Why? Because the South obstinately and wickedly refused to restrict or abolish it at the demand of the philosophers or fanatics and demagogues of the North and West. Then, sir, it was abolition, the purpose to abolish or interfere with and hem in slavery, which caused disunion and war. Slavery is only the subject, but Abolition the cause of this civil war.”

As for the Emancipation Proclamation, the President of the Confederate States said in response to the Proclamation: “It affords to our whole people the complete and crowning proof of the true nature of the designs of the party which elevated to power the present occupant of the Presidential chair at Washington, and which sought to conceal its purposes by every variety of artful device, and by the perfidious use of the most solemn and repeated pledges on every possible occasion.”

(Or in other words “See? See? We told you those dastardly Republicans were a bunch of abolitionists, in spite of what they claimed!!!”)

Of course just saying “The Civil War was about slavery!” is an oversimplification. But it’s a damned sight more accurate than all the twisting and turning and dodging and weaving of the Neo-Confederate historical revisionist crowd.

That is just normal political speech though. You can hear similar things on other issues just by watching CSPAN on a random day.

I truly believe that history books and the way lower level history classes have been taught in general have created a good versus evil theme that isn’t justified. The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example because it is hardly ever taught accurately. It didn’t immediately free any slaves by its own definition and it didn’t even attempt to in states like Maryland, Missouri and Delaware (which is a true Northern state in my opinion because it borders both the Philadelphia area and New Jersey).

If you ask the average person on the street why the Union fought the Civil War the vast majority will tell you that it was to free the slaves down South. That is false and demonstrably so because some Union states had slavery during the Civil War and most Union states had it at one time. Were they just as flawed for a long period and simply saw the light due to some revelation? Doubtful overall. It simply died out because it wasn’t a workable economic model in rapidly industrializing parts of the country but it still worked reasonably well in agrarian areas which were mostly located in the South at the time.

Meanwhile, the largely agrarian South still depended on slaves to support their economic model and the numbers of slaves were close to 1/3 of the population in some Southern states. Southerners admittedly built up this evil institutional system over time but there was no good solution for it once it was fully entrenched. Lincoln himself struggled with it and they tried to come up with plans ranging from shipping former slaves back to Africa or to a new colony in the Caribbean but the logistics for all of those plans had to be abandoned because they were too expensive or impractical. They couldn’t (in their eyes) just free millions of almost universally illiterate people for moral reasons because it would cause economic collapse of the whole region and unknown social disruption longer than many people’s lifespan.

Like people today that struggle with chronic problems, they chose to ignore it for too long until it broke out into a horrible and bloody war that ripped the fabric of the nation apart just because the people alive at the time hoped to preserve their own quality of life for as long as they could (you can see similar parallels today and at all times of human history).

There was nothing uniquely bad or immoral with most Southerners shortly before or even during the Civil War. They were simply fighting for the way of life that they inherited and had no good way of undoing it without unknown but certainly devastating effects to the region (again, they were completely right about that). The really bad choice the South made was starting a civil war war rather than fighting it out politically even more with Lincoln who was mostly on board with any peaceful solution anyone could come up with. However, if that alternate time line became true, slavery could have lasted in the U.S. until the late 1800’s like it did in Brazil so you have to pick your poison.

Southerners like me are used to being demonized for our heritage and we get used to it. Some react more badly than others to criticisms and even hate speech that we personally had no control over. I personally think that the current narrative of North = Good South = Bad is both ignorant of the real history when placed in proper context.

You saved me a lot of time.

I’ll add Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union, which mentions slaves/slavery/slave-holding/non-slaveholding 18 times.

I’d start by saying that whoever wrote that screed needs to learn correct spelling, grammar, punctuation, and capitalization. Most of the rest has been covered already. I’d add that the claim that Abraham Lincoln didn’t oppose slavery until the middle of the war is flatly false. He’d been speaking against slavery for years before the war. The Lincoln-Douglas debates are only the best known example.

Actually, slaves were a majority of the population in both South Carolina and Mississippi (57% and 55%, respectively), and over 40% of the population in Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, and Georgia. (Not coincidentally, these six states–along with Texas, 30% slave–were the states to secede first, before Fort Sumter and before Lincoln was even inaugurated.)
This notion of the “agrarian” South vs. the “industrial” North is itself a huge oversimplification. For example, there were almost three times as many farms in the Union states as in the Confederate states (and almost twice as many farms in the free states and territories as in the slave states). What the South was wasn’t just “agrarian”: It was a region whose economic heart was a system of plantation production of commodities for trade, including international trade, using slave labor; with cotton as “King”, accounting for over half the value of exports not just of the South but of the entire United States.

The South chose to secede and then fight a bloody and destructive war in order to defend slavery (which of course was an overwhelming economic interest, not just some kind of BDSM fetish). The North, meanwhile, had had slavery–at least in the northern areas of the original Thirteen Colonies; slavery was excluded from what became the Midwest from the start–but managed to get rid of the institution without a bloody and destructive war. Whether or not you think this means the Civil War can be boiled down to “good” vs. “evil”, I certainly don’t think it makes sense to glorify the Confederacy and to insist on waving its battle flag as some kind of quintessential symbol of Southern-ness, then get all offended when outsiders take that to mean that the essence of Southern-ness must therefore have something to do with slavery and white supremacy.

Both Maryland and Delaware were both slave states. Maryland voted to end slavery in 1864 but Delaware rejected the 13th Amendment and only ended slavery when the amendment was ratified making slavery a violation of the law.

It’s true that the Union didn’t initially go to war to end slavery. But the main reason southern states attempted to secede was because they wanted to preserve the institution of slavery as they were fearful that the lessening of their political influence meant that it was in jeopardy. Lincoln didn’t free the slaves in Maryland and Delaware because he didn’t have the power to do that as President of the United States. He freed the ones in the south because they were in open rebellion and he was denying them a war resource.

Too little too late. There were a few thousand at most compared to…oh, someone else already covered that. Yeah, there were a ton of black Union soldiers and very few Confederate ones. The fact that most of us didn’t learn about these footnotes to history isn’t surprising.

I never said that. I don’t own a battle flag and never have because that has always been a white trash or redneck symbol according to the way I was raised (don’t get me wrong, it is not philosophical, I just don’t like white trash very much and don’t like the flag by way of association). You can put it up or take it down all day long for all I care. It is a nice graphic design which is the main reason people display it even here in New England (it isn’t uncommon even here - a heavily tattooed Portuguese lesbian that parks next to me most days has one on her jeep). In short, basics symbols don’t mean much without knowing the thought process behind them.

However, I do have a picture of my Civil War ancestor on my kitchen wall along with all of his other fellow soldiers in the 22nd Mississippi and I would assault anyone if they tried to take i down. I really like genealogy and that is one of the most pristine artifacts from my ancestors that I have. Unlike most Southerners, my family did own slaves in a continuous line that has to be close to a record. From the 1st Colony at Jamestown to the Civil War, it was an unbroken line of slave owners that slowly made their way in an arc from Virginia to Louisiana during a 250 year trip with stops in many Southern states during that multi-generational journey.

The ancestor that I have on my wall had a father that was killed by his own slave. The only reason that I am from Louisiana is that he was sent to Northwestern Louisiana to fight in some under appreciated battles like the Battle of Mansfield on the western edge of the war, he got shot in the foot and could not walk back several hundred miles to Mississippi at the end of the war. He married the nurse that took care of him (my great x grandmother) and stayed for good and helping to found the small border town that I grew up in.

One of my other ancestors (William Henry James) was one of the very last surviving Civil War soldiers from a small town in Texas. He was called to service as a child and died in very late 1948, well after WWII was over. I have a pristine, vintage Life magazine with articles about the few remaining Civil War veterans alive at that time and he was one. I also have some newspaper clippings showing him celebrating his 100th birthday with the usual cigar and whiskey. He died just after that. He was poor his entire life until death but he did lead an interesting one.

People try to compare the antebellum South to Nazi Germany but that is not an accurate comparison at all. There were many human rights abuses for sure in the South (and the North) during that time but they were simply trying to keep an established legacy system going rather than actively killing people for no reason. No matter what you think of slavery, I think you can understand that it isn’t a good idea to cause permanent physical harm let alone death to one even if you view them as livestock because slaves were expensive. Sure, extreme atrocities happened to bad owners but the goal of slavery is to keep a healthy and productive workforce for profit which is not the same as a concentration camp.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not taking up for the system of slavery in general. I just think that people are too quick to judge past systems and circumstances based on their modern worldview rather than the one that was most applicable and easy at the time. I am neither ashamed nor proud of my ancestors. They were a product of their time and the places that they lived just like today. I think it is very unfair to judge every individual that happened to live in a certain region during times of unfortunate conflict.

They were also southern states at the time. Delaware wasn’t always a suburb of Philadelphia.

The Republicans had repeatedly said that they were not going to prohibit slavery in states that wished to allow it. They were only going to prohibit the introduction of slavery in territories, which were governed by Congress. Lincoln said the same thing.

This was not enough for the slave owners. They wanted the federal government to allow slavery everywhere - including in states which didn’t want it. The slave owners explicitly said that slavery was more important than any states rights argument.

So here’s what Lincoln and the Republican majority in Congress did against slavery:

  1. They prohibited slavery in areas governed by Congress: the territories and the District of Columbia.
  2. They encouraged the four slave states that stayed in the United States to enact legislation that would end slavery.
  3. They told the West Virginians that they would only agreed to West Virginia’s statehood if it prohibited slavery.
  4. Lincoln issued an executive order freeing slaves from places that were in rebellion as a war measure.
  5. They enacted the Thirteenth Amendment to abolish slavery throughout the United States.

So the Republican record was that they consistently opposed slavery - but made sure their opposition to it stayed within legal limits.

A few southerners had recognized this in 1860 and had tried to argue that slavery would be better protected by states staying in the United States.

I wasn’t necessarily saying that I thought you were a Confederate flag waver, just that this topic has bubbled back up to the surface again in large part because of the renewed controversy, in the wake of Dylann Roof’s murderous attacks, over those who do continue to wave the flag. (Including the entire state of Mississippi and, until quite recently, the State of South Carolina as well.)

And yes, not everybody who waves the Confederate flag actually means to indicate support for white supremacy, or even necessarily has the foggiest idea of what the Confederacy actually stood for. But, it’s just damned hard for the rest of us to somehow read the minds of those free-spirited Portuguese lesbians and Australian biker dudes and so forth who go around waving the flag of a would-be country that was founded for the perpetuation and defense of white supremacy and black slavery, and glean the fact that “Oh, this person is merely ignorant of the most basic facts of the history of the American Civil War, and is not an actual racist”.

The hell it isn’t. Some regimes just are straight-up evil and no amount of attempted historical revision will change that. Nazis. Khmer Rouge. Aztecs. Spartans. Apartheid South Africa.

And the Confederacy belongs on that list, damned by their own words.

Maybe if you didn’t bend yourselves into pretzels to justify the Confederacy, this wouldn’t happen.

No, it isn’t.The Confederates really were capital-B Bad. Not any particular individual soldier (that tired old defence that gets trotted out every time, “Oh, look at this poor no-slave-holding hillfolk conscript” - although your slaveholding ancestors don’t get that sop ) - the Confederacy as a whole was Evil.

Let’s have a closer look at that, and see where it takes us.

Plantation owners had a huge investment in slaves, so they wanted productive slaves, not unproductive slaves. That meant finding the most profitable balance between resources spent keeping slaves alive, healthy and productive, verses replacing unproductive or dead slaves. The blocking of the Atlantic slave trade by England, other European nations and the USA would have had the effect of forcing plantation owners to make better efforts at keeping their slaves productive rather than simply replacing them as they had previously been able to do. Slaves cost money to import, but they also cost money to keep alive. For example, Caribbean sugar plantation slave life expectancy was seven years in the late 17th century (Blackburn: The Making of New World Slavery, p. 339), and at one of my family’s plantations in northern South America’s Demerara, the life expectancy was three years (sorry, I can’t recall the text – dig about on the 1823 slave rebellion there and you’ll come across the general brutal conditions as well as the atrocities). Now ask yourself how cessation of the Atlantic slave trade would make a plantation owner feel? Frustrated at the increasing cost of disposable labour, and pissed of at the English, other Europeans, and the USA federal government that were strangling the supply of slaves.

So there we have the civilized world conspiring to put the screws to slavery. Now let’s have a look at the timing of the USA federal government’s opposition to slavery.
1776-1783: revolution and formation of the USA resulting in the Treaty of Paris, and among other things, a nice sounding USA government document that goes on about freedom (although not freedom for slaves).
1787: USA’s Northwest Ordinance that banned slavery north of the Ohio and set the stage for the future growth of the USA.
1794: USA’s Slave Trade Act that prohibited the building or outfitting of slave ships.
1807: importation of slaves banned by the USA, the slave trade banned by Britain. Britain establishing the West African Squadron to suppress the Atlantic Slave trade.
1820: USA starts sending ships to fight along side of the West African Squadron.
1842: USA formalizes its involvement with the West African Squadron though the Webster–Ashburton Treaty.

Quite simply, the USA federal government, all the way back to Jefferson, pushed to strangle slavery, to the detriment of the slave states where plantation owners had for generations relied on slaves.

In that context, yes, the issue of states’ rights – specifically states’ rights to have and profit from slavery – is a valid point, for from the slave states’ way of looking at things, slavery was at the core of their economy and society, and the USA government was impinging on their right to maintain their economy and society.

Basically, the sons of bitches were entrenched racists who put their own interest above human rights, so while the civilized world, including the USA government, moved forward over the decades to reduce and end slavery, the slave states literally fought tooth and nail to maintain their traditional “right” to slavery.

Claiming that the American civil war was about states’ rights rather than slavery ignores the glaringly obvious fact that it was the right to have slaves and the right to obtain slaves that were the rights the slave states were fighting for. When it comes to slave states and their cultural descendants, states’ rights and the right to have and obtain slaves are inextricably intertwined.

I’m not sure what you hope us to take away from this comment. Is this better or worse than being killed by someone else’s slave?