Another gay man beaten comatose

[gobear]

@Polycarp

To a point, I concede all that you say here. I might venture to point out that my own parish is overwhelmingly pro-gay, and my church (denomination) put its money where its mouth is by consecrating Gene Robinson recently. But you are no doubt aware of the strong divisions that has engendered.

Yes, I am, and that controversy only reinforces my point.

A tu quoque would be to point out that you’re in DC; why aren’t you incessantly lobbying all those Senators and Congressmen to stop kissing the collective ass of the Immoral Minority and do what’s right for a change.

Actually, I live in the Virginia suburbs just outside DC; people in DC have no senators or representative, so nobody careds what they think. My representative is pro-gay, and my senators are not, but i e-mail them anyway on matters of import.

In point of fact, I’m sure you know that Rome is not built in a day. And you’re doing what you can, when you can, towards getting things changed.

And so am I. And RT, and **Lib and Edlyn, and Tris, and Jodi, and Siege, and Sauron and Aries, and of course andygirl and Priam, who have a foot in each court on this one.

Indeed, and it is appreciated, but I fear you underestimate the viciousness and determination of the various forces that are arrayed against you.

The more the bigots insist on untruths, the more the people of good will and sincere faith stop believing what they say, and start listening to what you and I say.

That princuple hasn’t succeeded in defeating creationism, and I doubt that it will do any better with the anti-gay right.

I cannot in good conscience say, “have faith” or “have patience” to you, friend. But I can tell you that “All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.”

Yes, I read that passage in C. S. Lewis quoting Lady Juliana of Norwich, too.

[gobear]

@vanilla

What should I do?Never go to church?

I think you know what I think about the value of churches and religion, so I will leave that be.

I don’t, as some do, insist that people leave their churches if their teachings don’t score 100 percent on the gay-friendly test. But I do ask that you not remain silent-if a pastor says that all gays are child molesters, challenge him. If a fellow believer condemns all gay people to hell, quote Matthew 7:1 to him. Remind them that if they don’t have love and compassion for gay people, then they are just tinkling brass, hollow and empty.

[vanilla]

I’ve been meaning to talk to this young guy(about 21 it looks) in our church.
He claimed once (outloud) he is a reformed gay.
I plan on asking him what he means by that.

[gum]

MrVisible, I’m shocked.

I hope Mr. Fontes recovers and that they get the bloody bastards who did it.

[iampunha]

Just for the sake of a teeny tiny bit of hope:

1. Last Spring I delivered, down here in the asshole of the Bible Belt, a pro-gay speech. I went to the professor beforehand (long beforehand) to make sure it would be acceptable (i.e. he wouldn’t kick me out), and his words … “the bigots are slowly dying out”. Will remember that as long as I live. There were five people left in the classroom when I started my speech (people left when they had delivered their finals) … so that’s five people who know. Three of them, I think, did beforehand.

2. I associate with a not-insubstantial number of people who I know are pro-gay, and some of them are also religious. There are of course people who will continue to be icky (there are always going to be stragglers), but the number who have no intention of hurting me for who I am (or who they think I am; apparently I flame on occasion) is higher than I thought it would be.

3. It has been a while since I heard an anti-gay comment down here (I heard something about being sure to find a gay man in San Fran, but nothing about burning in hell or anything like that). Perhaps that is because of where I go and where I do not (I do not go to church down here, for example, and I don’t go clubbing either), but I think it bears some import.

vanilla, my guess (I see no reason to flame here even though it’s the pit) is that he probably believes, to whatever degree of sincerity, that sexuality is borne out in action, and so by being celibate (or associating intimately with a woman), he is no longer gay. This comes not just from speculation but from the sincere belief in some that sexuality is borne not in thought but in action (one wonders, then, why we ever have sex if it isn’t an innate desire in us, but that’s another matter), and so by abstaining from gay sex, for example, one can avoid that particular demon (as it is seen by those who believe as I have just indicated). When I have seen mention of “ex-gays” or “reformed gays” or suchlike, it is often the case that they define their sexuality by their behavior. I am, truth be told, utterly mystified by this, because to ME sexuality is about desire, not action; otherwise we would all be devoid of sexuality until we engaged in some sort of act with another. I can just see it … “Couple married today; they will become heterosexuals tomorrow” But then I am sure my POV is as confusing to them as theirs is to me.

[Aries28]

To me, whether he was gay, straight, black, white, religious, atheist, ate meat or anything else, the mere fact that someone would beat another HUMAN BEING into a coma and kick him repeatedly with steel toed shoes is appalling. Period.

If it was done solely because of who he is then it’s even more so.

[alexandra]

@Revtim

IMO, I don’t think the fact that he was beaten leaving a gay bar increases the probability that his homosexuality was the motive

Well yes it does, because people go looking for gay men on their own, and where are you going to find gay men?
I really hate the conservative denial that hate crimes don’t happen that often.

[alexandra]

I don’t think I can edit, but anyway, I’d just like to confirm that it doesn’t make it a dead cert, which no-one really thinks on here, but it raises the possibility.

[IWLN]

@vanilla

I’ve been meaning to talk to this young guy(about 21 it looks) in our church.
He claimed once (outloud) he is a reformed gay.
I plan on asking him what he means by that.

Well I can tell you what he means by that. He’s simply decided to deny a very basic, vital part of who he is. There’s no cure for sexual orientation, nor should there be. There’s a huge cost to doing this. I was in a 2 year straight(sort of) relationship with someone who didn’t want to be gay and decided not to be. Obviously I didn’t know he was gay until after I fell in love with him. And later I loved him enough to help him come to terms with who he really was. So I guess if it’s a sin, then I’m an accessory and hell bound too.:rolleyes: It was fun going out with him later and competing for the same men. He’s with a great guy now. I wonder why we never hear of reformed heterosexuals? Hmmm…

[Ilsa_Lund]

Ok, I have a solution after this thread and Hamlet’s. Anyone for whom there is sufficient evidnece of having commited a violent crime receive large caliber bullets to the brain. Summarily.

I think the Architect went overboard in making this verion of the Matrix imperfect.

[Revtim]

@alexandra

I don’t think I can edit, but anyway, I’d just like to confirm that it doesn’t make it a dead cert, which no-one really thinks on here, but it raises the possibility.

Well, I agree with you that it rasies the possibility. BTW, I’m neither a conservative nor do I deny hate crimes happen often.

It’s just that in this case all we know is he was beaten in front of gay bar, and that is consistant with every other theory of why he was beaten. As I said before, if he was a regular there, then that’s a good place to find him and beat him, for whatever motive.

[catsix]

Polycarp said:
Just as a quick response, Airman Doors, if you will note the last few paragraphs of the OP, Mr Visible explicitly raised the point that the motive is as yet unknown.

Mr. Visible did, in fact, say that there is no known motive for this, right here:

You’ll note that in the article, there’s no theories yet as to who did this. No suspects, no motives, no evidence. Could have been anyone; it could have been a spurned lover, another gay man. It could have been the CIA; oddly enough, Fontes had been in trouble with them as of late. Seems he sneaked onto the local military base to try and get an interview with President Bush. He got pretty far, too.

And then he made the following statement that seems to imply a parallel between the two cases:

Last June, a man got killed for walking out of that same bar. Soon after that, a firefighter beat a gay man on the northeast side of town, and got off with a slap on the wrist. Two years ago, a man was stabbed for simply standing in front of a gay coffee shop.

As of now, the only thing those two men have in common is that they left a particular bar, and Mr. Visible doesn’t say anything further about the victim last June to corrobrate that he really was attacked for leaving that bar or whether he was attacked after leaving that bar.

In fact, in all of the other examples there isn’t enough evidence posted here to know whether the people cited as examples were attacked because they were gay, or if they were people who were attacked and just happened to be gay.

Absent any background material, it is just as likely that the bar is in a bad area and there are other attacks there, that the fireman and the man on the northeast side of town were fighting and the fireman happened to ‘win’, or that the third man happened to be stabbed while standing in front of a gay coffee shop, rather than for standing on front of one.

If, for example, I found out someone was stabbed in front of a gay coffee shop in the Hill District in Pittsburgh, I wouldn’t automatically assumed they were stabbed beause of gay-hatred. The Hill’s a very bad neighborhood, with high crime, so it would seem more likely that the stabbing was a random occurance, or a mugging, or the victim was known to the perpetrator and they had a feud (especially if that bar was a regular place for the victim to go.)

[MrVisible]

Yeah, you’re all right. There’s no evidence that this was motivated by anti-gay hatred. No evidence at all, right now, as the victim is trying to survive in a local hospital, and he’s the only witness.

The bar is in a nice neighborhood; it’s the artistic part of town, promoted heavily in tourism campaigns. A church, a travel agency, an upscale pizza place, a legendary Mexican restaurant and a vegetarian restaurant share the same block.Very popular area with college students.

The stabbing and the murder I reported in my OP have all been charged as hate crimes, and recorded as such by the FBI. The firefighter had no record of contact with the victim, and was yelling anti-gay epithets as he beat him.

You’re right, I have no evidence that a young gay man found beaten and broken in an alley a block from the gay bar he’d just left was beaten by straight supremacists.

It’s an assumption, and as such it doesn’t count for much. But it’s a reasonable assumption to make, given the circumstances. And what I was lamenting, as you’ll notice with a careful reading of my OP, is that it’s a reasonable assumption to make.

You have to admit, I’d be an idiot if I left any gay bar in town alone and unarmed late at night until the assailants are caught, or this crime is explained some other way.

I eagerly anticipate the day that someone is beaten to within an inch of their lives after leaving a gay bar and the idea that they were beaten just for being gay is the furthest thing from my mind. I want desperately to know that I can walk down the street with my boyfriend, and not have to do a tactial assessment of the danger if we hold hands. That day will come, but until then, a lot of gay people are going to be injured and die.

And a lot of people are going to jump through hoops trying to imply that the danger isn’t real.

If you think this country is such a wonderful place to be gay, go walk around town with someone of your own gender, and hold hands. Try it for a day. Then come back and tell me I’m making stuff up.

[Scylla]

@gobear

Sigh.

I’m just waiting for IzzyR, Scylla, or any of the other usual suspects to come in here and say that we gay people are just imagining acts of hate against us.

What a coincidence! I was just waiting for gobear or some other drama queen to bitch and complain about something I haven’t done.

[Scylla]

gobear, I have never said these things don’t happen, and you know it.

What pisses me off, is people that use these tragic events for their own edification.

That you would use this man’s tragedy to drag me in here, put words in my mouth, sigh tragically and try to win some pissy little point is pretty disgusting.

It shows me that you don’t take this very seriously, that you’d be willing to use it to try to reinforce your sense of smug superiority.

FTR, you better beleive that when I hear about things like what happened to this man, it enrages me.

[vanilla]

iampunha,
I believe youre right.
Sexuality is desire,not actions. I am celibate but straight.
When someone is young, sometimes something “clicks” in them and they are gay, or realize they are a foot fetishist, or whatever else that isn’t, shall I say,
vanilla.
It happens and God knows what sets it off.
No one chooses it.

I’ve not even been introduced to this young guy, so feel it would be a bit inappropriate to suddenyl go up and ask why you not gay no more?
What I think he means by it, IWLN (and I could’ve sworn you were a guy) is that he no longer desires men sexually.
I wonder how that happens.

[Gest]

@Ilsa_Lund

Ok, I have a solution after this thread and Hamlet’s. Anyone for whom there is sufficient evidnece of having commited a violent crime receive large caliber bullets to the brain. Summarily.

And I bet you’re just the grrrl to do it eh? How much evidnece would you deem sufficient considering the penalty is a summary execution? Do you understand what a summary execution is? Would your plan require that everyone carry large calibre weapons so that executions can indeed be carried out as summarily as possible?

Think of the enormous logistical problems in having Einsatzgruppen stationed outside every pub and bar waiting for the closing time brawls and the ensuing executions. Do you feel a volunteer force would be more appropriate (and thrifty)?

How much do you charge for babysitting on Saturday nights?

[Priam]

@Gest

And I bet you’re just the grrrl to do it eh?

No. I bet he thinks he’s the guy to do it, actually. But thank you for playing

[Gest]

Actually, I’m aware he’s a guy. Did you really think I was interested in him sitting for us too? Thanks for the welcome.

[gobear]

My apolgies, Scylla, you’re quite right. Somehow I confused you and Shodan.

I’m sorry.