Another Iranian incident...is there a pattern forming here?

[RedFury]

@Declan

What it really comes down to is does Russia have the stones to actually go head to head with the States, and that I dont [sic]believe that they do, short of an American Invasion of Russian terrirtory[sic].

Declan

Quite honestly I don’t understand all this American hubris. I mean WTF, is there no end to it? Does “Russia have the stones”? You had you ass handed to you in 'Nam and all Russia had to do was supply arms to a bunch of peasants. And it appears you’re not doing too well against a third-world guerrilla in Iraq. So, what, exactly, makes you think Russia and China are not ready to call your bluff vis-a-vis Iran? Whether they do it directly or indirectly is rather inconsequential. Point being, either way, LOTS of more innocent people are going to die.

I mean really, do you REALLY want to play “chicken” with Russia and China? Think about it. Because in my book, short of going nuclear – where, for the life of me I can’t see a “winner” emerging. Yeah sure, you can bomb the shit our of Iran…but what then? Do you honestly think that short of killing all 70+ million of them there won’t be reprisals? Or even if you did, you seriously think 6.5 billion non-Americans are going to let it happen?

Talk about living in different realities. Might as well be different universes. Can’t tell you how sick and tired I am of listening to all this ‘American superiority’ BS. Dollars to donuts I’m not the only one thinking that way.

IMHO, best your country can do at the moment is lay low, try to re-engage in diplomacy with the rest of the world and quit boasting/chest thumping. Just doesn’t fly anymore…

Sure we all know about your awesome weapons. But IDE’s and rotting Kalashnikov’s can be pretty deadly as well. Never mind suicide bombers and the Russian and Chinese’s conventional arsenal.

I mean, all you’ve done since you launched TWAT is at least double the number of your enemies world-wide. So is that really the path you want to stay on?

[Evil_One]

@Squink

You know, xtisme asked a serious question here. Would it kill you all to stop spouting shit in an otherwise perfectly decent thread?

My opening sentence was a slap at those who try to equate and justify the behavior of Iran as it relates to the United States. I thought the rest of my post was polite and well considered.

Please forgive me for not living up to the standards of decorum that you so admirably set.

[BrainGlutton]

@Evil One

Absolutely. I was referring to people who continue to equate the behavior of Iran and the United States. No matter what Iran does…religious intolerance, hostage-taking, terror sponsorship…they will always claim that the United States does the same (or worse) and therefore the two countries are on a similar moral plane. Clearly, to everyone but the ideologically addled, they are not.

The U.S. is a better place to live, to be sure. OTOH, the post-1979 government of Iran has never waged a war of aggression.

@Evil One

You are assuming that Ahmadinejad is not driven to reckless behavior by either extremist ideology or the idea of losing power or a combination of both. The powers that be in Iran are fully aware that a large portion of the population are not “true believers in the revolution”…and they may want to act while they still have thier hands on the levers of power.

Whatever dissatisfaction the Iranians feel with their government has never yet reached the point of an active insurgency, except by Kurdish guerrillas.

@Evil One

Iran became an enemy of the United States in 1979 and will eventually have to be dealt with. On whose timetable remains to be seen.

Ya wanna invade Vietnam too? I hear we have some unfinished business there. And then there’s North Korea.

We don’t have to remain enemies with every country with which we have ever had a conflict. Defeating them is not the only way to make peace.

[pantom]

Too much talk about the US here.
Britain is the aggrieved party. While the US military would obviously back the UK in whatever it decided to do, given that we have carrier groups there ready to shred the Iranians to ribbons if they try anything stupid, the UK is the one that will decide what needs to be done.
Also, I believe the EU has backed the UK as well, and Russia and China are giving only minimal support to Iran, best as I can figure out.
Given all that, Iran is in a much tougher place than we think. Yes, if they do do something stupid, oil will probably go to 100 a barrel, and we’d find ourselves in recession. Iran, on the other hand, would probably find itself minus a city or two.
You can recover from a recession. Rebuilding a city is a bit more daunting.

Comment on the left bashing here: Reagan was the one who dealt with the enemy in Iran-Contra. How he wound up unimpeached and enabling traitors like Oliver North are still free is a story all by itself. (I use traitor in almost the legal sense here, since in this case actual aid, in the form of arms that might yet be used against us one day, was given to an enemy of the U.S. It doesn’t get any more treasonous than this. Whether Iran is a declared and legal enemy I don’t know; probably not. For any practical purpose, it doesn’t matter.) And, after Tet in Vietnam, the VC was gone, and it was all NVA (regular North Vietnamese Army, for the uninitiated), all the time, for *five years, *before we withdrew. Ahistorical statements meant to prove an ideological point just make the offending party look stupid.

[Declan]

@RedFury

Quite honestly I don’t understand all this American hubris. I mean WTF, is there no end to it? Does “Russia have the stones”? You had you ass handed to you in 'Nam and all Russia had to do was supply arms to a bunch of peasants. And it appears you’re not doing too well against a third-world guerrilla in Iraq. So, what, exactly, makes you think Russia and China are not ready to call your bluff vis-a-vis Iran? Whether they do it directly or indirectly is rather inconsequential. Point being, either way, LOTS of more innocent people are going to die.

Cause the Russians at least would have had to start moving forces to the border area , so far they have not. The chinese have no forces to project in the middle east so they have to make an asymetric power projection against something they can hit and yet they have not done so at this time.

Both actions are visible and what you want the rest of the world to see if your intention is to ratchet up the stakes and to show that they are serious enough to be a threat that has to be honored.

I mean really, do you REALLY want to play “chicken” with Russia and China? Think about it.** Because in my book, short of going nuclear – where, for the life of me I can’t see a “winner” emerging.** Yeah sure, you can bomb the shit our of Iran…but what then? Do you honestly think that short of killing all 70+ million of them there won’t be reprisals? Or even if you did, you seriously think 6.5 billion non-Americans are going to let it happen?

You need to adjust your perception of both Russia and China to todays date and not something from the sixties and seventies, its a different world , move on.

Talk about living in different realities. Might as well be different universes. Can’t tell you how sick and tired I am of listening to all this ‘American superiority’ BS. Dollars to donuts I’m not the only one thinking that way.

Yeah its called the Mitterand whine

IMHO, best your country can do at the moment is lay low, try to re-engage in diplomacy with the rest of the world and** quit boasting/chest thumping. Just doesn’t fly anymore…**

Adjust your perception again, its called Deeds not words

But it still comes down to the question of Do Russia and China have the will to fight.

Declan

[Evil_One]

@RedFury

I mean, all you’ve done since you launched TWAT is at least double the number of your enemies world-wide. So is that really the path you want to stay on?

Red, I often disagree with you but it’s interesting to read a european perspective.

As you may recall, there was a bit of justification for launching “TWAT”. 9/11 was the culmination of almost forty years of terrorism. Religious extremists have decided that our society needs to be destroyed and they have to be dealt with.

Many people around the world accuse the United States of “arrogance” and “greed” and “imperialism” when all it’s doing is defending itself and acting in its own best interest. I’m speaking more of the past twenty years or so than the Iraq war specifically…I think many things our country has done have been better justified than the Iraq invasion.

But the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter. To those who dislike the United States, anything we do is unjustified and grounded in “evil” or “greed”. So the choice is either to please those who don’t have our best interest at heart or to do what we can to maintain our economy and standard of living for ourselves and our allies.

As I said in another post, Iran has been our enemy since 1979 and is responsible for dozens of American deaths. They need to be dealt with. And they will be, either on their terms or ours.

In the meantime, our society will continue to improve lives all over the world through science, medical research, agicultural innovation and charity. Millions of people worldwide, including nearly all of europe, owe their personal and political freedom to the blood and treasure of the United States of America.

You’re welcome.

[Evil_One]

@BrainGlutton

OTOH, the post-1979 government of Iran has never waged a war of aggression.

Your grasp of history and current events is surely sufficient to realize that Iran is easily in the top five enemies of the United States over the past thirty years and has performed many overt and covert acts to earn that distinction.

[BrainGlutton]

@Evil One

Your grasp of history and current events is surely sufficient to realize that Iran is easily in the top five enemies of the United States over the past thirty years and has performed many overt and covert acts to earn that distinction.

What, since 1981, have they actually done to us?

[GIGObuster]

@Evil One

Red, I often disagree with you but it’s interesting to read a european perspective.

…

In the meantime, our society will continue to improve lives all over the world through science, medical research, agicultural innovation and charity. Millions of people worldwide, including nearly all of europe, owe their personal and political freedom to the blood and treasure of the United States of America.

You’re welcome.

Mmm, Red is from Spain, so recalling WWII history and The Marshall Plan, he can not thank us…

And since I’m coming from El Salvador I already saw the standards of freedom that the current administration would claim to be a success in Iraq and Iran.

MILITARY PLANS ADVISORY ROLE AS FALLBACK IN IRAQ

[Evil_One]

@BrainGlutton

What, since 1981, have they actually done to us?

Is it your contention that Iran has done nothing against the interests of the United States since 1981? If so, a laundry list from me will do nothing to change your mind.

[Evil_One]

@GIGObuster

Mmm, Red is from Spain, so recalling WWII history and The Marshall Plan, he can not thank us…

You’re right. I’m sure the Nazis would have left Spain alone if the United States had not intervened in WWII. I’m sure letting the Soviet Union have Europe after WWII would have worked out well for Spain as well.

But I didn’t need to tell you that. You already knew it.

[RedFury]

@Declan

Cause the Russians at least would have had to start moving forces to the border area , so far they have not. The chinese have no forces to project in the middle east so they have to make an asymetric power projection against something they can hit and yet they have not done so at this time.

You’re shitting me, right? When was the last time you took a look at a world map? Because in so far as I can tell, you’d be fighting in enemy territory in Iran. Take a look and you’ll find that both, Russia and China are stone’s throw away from Iran – not much “force projection” needed to either supply Iranians with loads of weapons and, in a worse case scenario, wipe-out your whole forces in the region with their own ICBMs.

Both actions are visible and what you want the rest of the world to see if your intention is to ratchet up the stakes and to show that they are serious enough to be a threat that has to be honored.

See above. OTOH, you seem totally convinced that they are making hollow threats.

::::shrug:::

It’s your dime.

You need to adjust your perception of both Russia and China to todays date and not something from the sixties and seventies, its a different world , move on.

It just might be the exact opposite and it is you who needs a "change of perception’. Seems awfully foolish to me the way you write-off 1.2 billion people – never mind the roughly 1.2 billion Muslims who don’t exactly like you either. If my math doesn’t fail me, that’s about 2.4 billion people you’re willing to tangle with – conventionally or not. We shall see, said the blindman, won’t we?

Yeah its called the Mitterand whine

As opposed to the “freedom fries” whine? :rolleyes: Because he just “happened” to be right all along…as the rest of the billions of us who opposed the Iraq invasion.

But it still comes down to the question of Do Russia and China have the will to fight.

Right. Because as we all know, since Hollywood told us, Americans are the only ones that can shoot from the hip. Hell John Wayne’s about ready to jump outta his grave and swagger into the scene – and hell yeah, at least he could swagger a thousand times better than your current Chimp In Charge.

Ossama? “Dead or alive” ring a bell?

---

EvilOne, running late for a dinner appointment thus I’m afraid I can’t answer you in full.

For now, I’ll just say that I – along with most of the rest of the world – backed the Afghanistan war. Hell, I lived 30 miles from Ground Zero at the time – Stamford, CT.

However, what you’ve done since has done nothing but to create hatred and/or contempt for your nation. And I hear it here (Dom Rep, where I currently reside) and in Europe where I frequently travel. In fact, I’m off to Spain in two weeks yet again.

Think about it and pardon the brevity of my response. As I said, pressed for time.

Night.

[GIGObuster]

@Evil One

Is it your contention that Iran has done nothing against the interests of the United States since 1981? If so, a laundry list from me will do nothing to change your mind.

As I see it, both do have a list:

Iran–United States relations

Concerns of Iranian and US governments against each other

There are serious obstacles to improved relations between the two countries. A possible list of concerns of the U.S. Government:

Alleged Iranian efforts to acquire nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction;
Alleged involvement in international terrorism;[8]
Alleged support for violent opposition to the Middle East peace process;
Iran’s close proximity to major oil resources, and the balance of power involved in controlling access to them.
Alleged threats and subversive activities against its neighbors; and
Its human rights record.
Imposing Sharia through the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Iran and depriving Iranians of freedom

A similar, Iranian, list of complaints might read as follows:

CIA Operation Ajax to overthrow democratically chosen Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and restore the exiled Shah;
Frozen Iranian assets that have not been released since 1979;
U.S. Support for anti-Iranian terrorist organisations (i.e. the MKO);[9]
U.S. companies assistance in developing Iraq’s chemical weapons facilities during the Iran-Iraq war.;
USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air Flight 655 with many civilian fatalities;
Economic damage caused by U.S. Sanctions and political pressure;
U.S. UAV overflights over Iran violating Iranian airspace since 2003.
U.S. military presence in the neighboring countries of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Its human rights record.
US, under democracy, used weapons of mass destruction (Nuclear weapon) as a tool in war. The only occurrence known in the recorded human history.

Several of the Iranian items are really weak, but I do think they are important to keep in mind to understand what is going in their minds.

[Der_Trihs]

@Evil One

My opening sentence was a slap at those who try to equate and justify the behavior of Iran as it relates to the United States.

Outside it’s borders, America is at least as bad as Iran, if not worse. Just as it was just as bad as the USSR.

@pantom

Too much talk about the US here.
Britain is the aggrieved party. While the US military would obviously back the UK in whatever it decided to do, given that we have carrier groups there ready to shred the Iranians to ribbons if they try anything stupid, the UK is the one that will decide what needs to be done.

At present, Britain is America’s puppet; it will do as it is told. When Blair is out of power perhaps it’ll start acting like an ally instead of a toady, but not yet.

@Evil One

As you may recall, there was a bit of justification for launching “TWAT”. 9/11 was the culmination of almost forty years of terrorism. Religious extremists have decided that our society needs to be destroyed and they have to be dealt with.

Please. It’s never been about anything but trying to enforce the American and Republican hegemony and neocon/Christian fundie agenda. That’s why there are gaping holes in such things as port security; the people in charge don’t really care about terrorism in the slightest. Hell, they’d probably love it if someone smuggled a nuke into New York or San Francisco and set it off. Lots of martyrs, and they’re all a bunch of evil atheistic libelal homosexuals anyway. A great bloody shirt to wave.

@Evil One

Many people around the world accuse the United States of “arrogance” and “greed” and “imperialism” when all it’s doing is defending itself and acting in its own best interest.

Killing people who were no danger to us by the tens of thousands right and left, personally or by our proxies isn’t defending ourselves. And looking after our interests with the kind of amoral ruthlessness we’ve used IS ’ “arrogance” and “greed” and “imperialism” '.

@Evil One

But the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter. To those who dislike the United States, anything we do is unjustified and grounded in “evil” or “greed”.

A lie, and a stupid one. People react differently to mass murder, sweat shops, ursury, bribery, American backed tyrants, kidnappings, torture and conquest than they do to fair deals, respect, and help. Despite America’s arrogance and xenophobia, the rest of the world is not composed of zombies who shufffle around moaning “Must . . . destroy . . . America”. Most of them hate us for perfectly good reasons; we’ve earned the world’s hate. I’m frankly surprised we aren’t hated more.

As I said in another post, Iran has been our enemy since 1979 and is responsible for dozens of American deaths.

They’ve been our enemy since we became their enemy, by putting the Shah in.

In the meantime, our society will continue to improve lives all over the world through science, medical research, agicultural innovation and charity. Millions of people worldwide, including nearly all of europe, owe their personal and political freedom to the blood and treasure of the United States of America.

You’re welcome.

It was Russia far more than the US that beat Germany, if that’s what you are talking about. As for America, it went against the Axis because it was attacked, not out of benevolence. Sane goes for the Cold War; they opposed capitalism, and they were atheists; that’s why were against them. Not because we cared at all about anybody’s freedom. And most of the blood that was spilled was that of our pawns and the Soviets, not Americans.

And then there are the tyrants we’ve imposed and propped up, the world financial structure designed to help us at the expense of the Third World, the economies we’ve warped for our own profit, the technologies we’ve tried to suppress, our crusades against birth control, sex education, and abortion, and innumerable other evils.

America isn’t some benevolent land of heros; it’s a malignant tumor on the face of the Earth; all consuming, all destroying. It will change or be destroyed; either at the hands of it’s enemies, or by killing it’s host as real cancers do. More likely the latter.

[BrainGlutton]

@Evil One

I’m sure the Nazis would have left Spain alone if the United States had not intervened in WWII.

Well, yes. Franco came to power with Hitler’s support.

[Spoke]

@Evil One

Is it your contention that Iran has done nothing against the interests of the United States since 1981? If so, a laundry list from me will do nothing to change your mind.

I would like to see this laundry list of yours, so that I may better decide whether we should go to war with Iran (as the right seems so devoutly to desire).

[Malodorous]

@GIGObuster (quoting wiki)

Iran’s close proximity to major oil resources, and the balance of power involved in controlling access to them.

Heh. We’re holding their geographic location against them?!

[Der_Trihs]

@Malodorous

Heh. We’re holding their geographic location against them?!

Hey, just like Iraq, they have no right to live on top of OUR oil !

[Evil_One]

@RedFury

However, what you’ve done since has done nothing but to create hatred and/or contempt for your nation. And I hear it here (Dom Rep, where I currently reside) and in Europe where I frequently travel. In fact, I’m off to Spain in two weeks yet again.

Think about it and pardon the brevity of my response. As I said, pressed for time.

Night.

I look forward to hearing it. Seriously. I came on a little strong at the end of the post, but it’s something I feel strongly about. I don’t want to get into a urinating contest.

[Evil_One]

@Der Trihs

America isn’t some benevolent land of heros; it’s a malignant tumor on the face of the Earth; all consuming, all destroying. It will change or be destroyed; either at the hands of it’s enemies, or by killing it’s host as real cancers do. More likely the latter.

It’s this kind of stuff that causes people to mock you. It’s also the reason that you usually don’t get much of a response when you weigh in on the discussion. It’s obviously a waste of time.