[QUOTE=Evil One]
You’re right. I’m sure the Nazis would have left Spain alone if the United States had not intervened in WWII. I’m sure letting the Soviet Union have Europe after WWII would have worked out well for Spain as well.
But I didn’t need to tell you that. You already knew it.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Spain became a fascist state with the help of the Nazis **before ** the US entered WWII.
My reply did take into account what you are **trying ** to say here, so yes I knew it, and it is still really a useless reply from you. You are still wrong regarding the standards of freedom. Spain belonged to the Fascist Franco for decades after WWII. The US actually broke an embargo against the fascist regime because Franco offered nice military bases to us.
The good I saw in protecting the rest of Europe (not Spain) against communism included not inciting internal rebellion or contra movements against the communist block in Europe, because of the danger of nuclear weapons, a different approach was needed. In the long run, the example of the development of western Europe and not affecting the lives of the people of the eastern Block nations was the key.
The people did not see later contra movements or constant moves to invade violently, the people learned then that we were not what the communist propaganda told them.
Regarding Iran I see many now assuming that over there they are not as human as the people of the former European communist block, I think it is a mistake.
So I guess you ignore all that history because it does not fit your preconceptions…
[QUOTE=spoke-]
I would like to see this laundry list of yours, so that I may better decide whether we should go to war with Iran (as the right seems so devoutly to desire).
[/QUOTE]
If you have been paying attention since 1979, you know as well as I do what the Iranians have done or attempted to do. If you haven’t been, then I won’t be taking the time to educate you.
I could spend hours researching and meticulously documenting an epic post laying out my case…and then have it discounted out of hand. I don’t have the desire or the time to do that.
[QUOTE=Evil One]
It’s this kind of stuff that causes people to mock you. It’s also the reason that you usually don’t get much of a response when you weigh in on the discussion. It’s obviously a waste of time.
[/QUOTE]
I get plenty of responses, and I don’t really care how people feel about me, or my opinions.
America isn’t some benevolent land of heros; it’s a malignant tumor on the face of the Earth; all consuming, all destroying. It will change or be destroyed; either at the hands of it’s enemies, or by killing it’s host as real cancers do. More likely the latter.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Evil One]
It’s this kind of stuff that causes people to mock you. It’s also the reason that you usually don’t get much of a response when you weigh in on the discussion. It’s obviously a waste of time.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I get plenty of responses, and I don’t really care how people feel about me, or my opinions.
[/QUOTE]
Well… I do Der Trihs, I will have to say that you are really exaggerating your points (to the point of becoming silly) when there is no need. Evil One has already demonstrated that he does not care if the past does not support him.
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
Well… I do Der Trihs, I will have to say that you are really exaggerating your points (to the point of becoming silly) when there is no need.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not exaggerating, I’m simply stating my opinion. America in my eyes has become a Christian-corporate machine that is determined to use up the world. A Simpsons episode some years ago had Homer wearing a T-shirt picturing Uncle Sam eating Earth, with the caption “Try And Stop Us !”
[QUOTE=Evil One]
If you have been paying attention since 1979, you know as well as I do what the Iranians have done or attempted to do. If you haven’t been, then I won’t be taking the time to educate you.
I could spend hours researching and meticulously documenting an epic post laying out my case…and then have it discounted out of hand. I don’t have the desire or the time to do that.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t born in 1979, so I wouldn’t mind a list either. Or at least a summary of anything that wasn’t on GIGO’s list.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I’m not exaggerating, I’m simply stating my opinion. America in my eyes has become a Christian-corporate machine that is determined to use up the world. A Simpsons episode some years ago had Homer wearing a T-shirt picturing Uncle Sam eating Earth, with the caption “Try And Stop Us !”
That’s pretty much my view of America.
[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, but that is still the cartoon version..
Really, I do agree that we are doing abusive things now because we can, but I do see that already there are limits on what this administration can do.
[QUOTE=the movie “Seven”]
William Somerset: Ernest Hemingway once wrote, “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.” I agree with the second part.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RedFury]
You’re shitting me, right? When was the last time you took a look at a world map? Because in so far as I can tell, you’d be fighting in enemy territory in Iran. Take a look and you’ll find that both, Russia and China are stone’s throw away from Iran – not much “force projection” needed to either supply Iranians with loads of weapons and, in a worse case scenario, wipe-out your whole forces in the region with their own ICBMs.
[/QUOTE]
So lets recap shall we.
Iran has home field advantage , Russia which has a border with Iran on the caspian sea has come out in favor of leaving Iran to its own devices and using strong language to that effect.
Since its own word is no longer strong enough, Russia teams up with China in issuing that statement drawing a line in the sand and go further at your peril uncle sam.
Your off the cuff responses on their part , supply Iran with lots of techno goodies and leaving them to their own ends, or quite frankly launching scads of nukes at forces in the theatre.
I on the other hand , do think the Bear and the Panda are paper tigers and will not do anything remotely like what you think
See they , unlike you are not worried about the US, an American response is a known factor in their deliberations.
What they are worried about is Iran doing somthing that will trigger that response and wish to keep the two parties from engaging in a brawl that may trigger something they fear.
So we wait while the diplomats do their thing and hopefully release those Brit tars alive and well.
I get a little wary when I hear vague references to Iran’s “involvement with international terrorism,” by the way. No doubt Iran has supported anti-Israel groups, but that doesn’t strike me as casus bellifor the US or Britain.
I get a sense that the term “international terrorism” when applied to Iran is purposefully vague, as if to encourage conflation of Iran’s regime with the activities of al Qaeda in the public mind. And has Iran ever sponsored terrorism anywhere apart from Israel/Lebanon? (Not that I’m condoning Iran’s activities in this regard – just questioning their breadth.)
[QUOTE=Evil One]
Absolutely. I was referring to people who continue to equate the behavior of Iran and the United States. No matter what Iran does…religious intolerance, hostage-taking, terror sponsorship…they will always claim that the United States does the same (or worse) and therefore the two countries are on a similar moral plane. Clearly, to everyone but the ideologically addled, they are not.
[/QUOTE]
We’ve done far worse things to the continent of South America alone than Iran has ever done against us. If we’re justified in waging war against Iran then we better start militarizing our border with Mexico.
Still, on a good day I’ll say that the populations of most countries are basically good but need better representation in their government.
[QUOTE=ITR champion] We’ve been over this before. 655,000 dead, not all at the hands of the U.S. Military, but certainly all as a predictable result of the U.S. invasion.
[/QUOTE]
Then clearly the US didn’t “slaughter” them, now, did we?
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
Then clearly the US didn’t “slaughter” them, now, did we?
[/QUOTE]
We certainly killed quite a few by our own hands, and setting up a situation that will kill people and disclaiming responsibility is dishonest. You might as well shoot someone and blame the bullet.
The Iranians are scared of being attacked, as a result they are building a bomb and making a song and dance.
British officers in South Iraq have complained about Iran training, financing and arming insurgents. The BBC has a Farsi service - that might be really annoying Ahmadinejad and his friends.
Ah - yes and they’ll be getting TV early in 2008
The rent-a-mob outside the British Embassy was quite predictable
what has me guessing is ‘what will they do next ?’
I don’t take the Chinese and Russian stuff as at all significant, neither are fond of Moslem Fundamentalists - and neither have much to fear from the USA. The Cold War is over, China’s only real political problem is Taiwan and the Russians are in Chechenya because of Moslem Fundamentalists.
It would be quite possible to destroy Iran’s infrastructure, but short of removing the nuclear threat (which I think Israel will do anyway) and getting rid of an annoying little jerk, it would probably not be a good idea - while gullible, most Iranians are probably more interested in DVDs than Jihad.
I’m wondering whether one could do something like jam their broadcasting channels.
Incidentally we seem to be hearing astonishingly little about those generals, I would not be at all surprized if they had actually defected en masse in order to offer some sort of regime change from inside. I rather doubt that they like the Revolutionary Guard.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
We certainly killed quite a few by our own hands, and setting up a situation that will kill people and disclaiming responsibility is dishonest. You might as well shoot someone and blame the bullet.
[/QUOTE]
By your ridiculous logic, the US is to blame for any death for any reason in Iraq. Why don’t you widen it out a bit? We’re responsible for any death for any reason anywhere in the developing world? That way you can blame America for all the deaths in Iraq, Africa, Latin America, and Asia. Wouldn’t that make you even happier?
The Iranians are scared of being attacked, as a result they are building a bomb and making a song and dance.
British officers in South Iraq have complained about Iran training, financing and arming insurgents. The BBC has a Farsi service - that might be really annoying Ahmadinejad and his friends.
Ah - yes and they’ll be getting TV early in 2008
The rent-a-mob outside the British Embassy was quite predictable
what has me guessing is ‘what will they do next ?’
I don’t take the Chinese and Russian stuff as at all significant, neither are fond of Moslem Fundamentalists - and neither have much to fear from the USA. The Cold War is over, China’s only real political problem is Taiwan and the Russians are in Chechenya because of Moslem Fundamentalists.
It would be quite possible to destroy Iran’s infrastructure, but short of removing the nuclear threat (which I think Israel will do anyway) and getting rid of an annoying little jerk, it would probably not be a good idea - while gullible, most Iranians are probably more interested in DVDs than Jihad.
I’m wondering whether one could do something like jam their broadcasting channels.
Incidentally we seem to be hearing astonishingly little about those generals, I would not be at all surprized if they had actually defected en masse in order to offer some sort of regime change from inside. I rather doubt that they like the Revolutionary Guard.
[/QUOTE]
All pretty apt, except for the gullible part. If you change gullible to young and moderate, you’d be much closer to the truth.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
By your ridiculous logic, the US is to blame for any death for any reason in Iraq.
[/quote]
Garbage; we are responsible for the deaths due to what we have inflicted on Iraq, because they would not have happened without us. You’re simply trying to evade America’s obvious responsibility by evading what I and others have said.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
All pretty apt, except for the gullible part. If you change gullible to young and moderate, you’d be much closer to the truth.
[/QUOTE]
If that is so then Ahmadinejad’s ploy will work against him
maybe it will
I’ve the germ of an angle here, the Chinese are very interested in Iran’s oil, Iran has economic problems and their oil sector needs investment. Naturally they would be reluctant to deal with a regime that looks as if it is building a bomb, but would be happy to supply 3% U235 in return for oil. By getting a major league ally, Iran could save face.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Garbage; we are responsible for the deaths due to what we have inflicted on Iraq, because they would not have happened without us. You’re simply trying to evade America’s obvious responsibility by evading what I and others have said.
[/QUOTE]
The US is not responsibile for every death in Iraq; surely the militias killed a few and are simply taking advantage of the situation; surely we’re not to blame for every heart attack or still-born child - both of which are included in the death toll of the Lancet report quoted in the Washington Post. Of course by your logic, that’s still our fault, because without the evil US invading the poor innocent Iraq who had done nothing wrong and toppled that super-swell guy Saddam who was a beacon of hope in the Middle East, none of those horrible things would have happened, right?
I’m trying to evade nothing; your ridiculous premise that the US is to blame for every bad thing that happens anywhere in the world is just dumb and shows your own prejudice more than anything else.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
The US is not responsibile for every death in Iraq;
[/quote]
And I said nothing of the sort.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
surely the militias killed a few and are simply taking advantage of the situation; surely we’re not to blame for every heart attack or still-born child - both of which are included in the death toll of the Lancet report quoted in the Washington Post.
[/quote]
We wrecked their infrastructure, including their health care, and created the anarchy that lets the “insurgents” and militias run wild. Of course we are responsible.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
Of course by your logic, that’s still our fault, because without the evil US invading the poor innocent Iraq who had done nothing wrong and toppled that super-swell guy Saddam who was a beacon of hope in the Middle East, none of those horrible things would have happened, right?
[/quote]
Most would not have; compared to us, Saddam was “a beacon of hope”. Not because he was anything but a tyrant, but because we are so awful for Iraq that Saddam was a Great Statesman by comparison.
[QUOTE=GomiBoy]
I’m trying to evade nothing; your ridiculous premise that the US is to blame for every bad thing that happens anywhere in the world is just dumb and shows your own prejudice more than anything else.
[/QUOTE]
And claiming that I said that is yet another attempt at evasion.
