I really don’t understand this. As I understand the christian god, he created the heavens/earth/oceans etc. He is supposedly all powerful, and knows everything.
So how can that be reconciled with the statement that it was simple geology. He created the geology, and knew it was going to happen.
So if I put ants on a length of toilet paper suspended over a vat of acid, and then proceed to pour water on the toilet paper until it breaks and falls into the acid - by your definition I am not responsible for the ants death even though I created the situation and knew full well what was going to happen.
At best, it’s a waste of time and encourages destructive, amoral patterns of thought and behavior.
But they probably won’t be sending as much help as they would if they weren’t praying. That after all is part of the point of prayer; it lets you feel like you’ve done good, while doing nothing. And I expect quite a lot of that “aid” will come with as many religious hooks as they can get away with; “Want food? Let us baptise you into our religion!” I recall reading of that happening in Iraq; no water rations without a baptism. Believers don’t really care about other people; they care about God and souls.
That’s a good thing. You did a good thing, JUST because it was the right thing.
This to me is one of those times where I don’t think people care what the motivartions are behind the help, as long as the help gets there.
Well, Valteron, Christian’s do not believe that God caused this earthquake or any other. No need to thank me for dispelling your ignorance; it’s all part of a day’s work. (By the way, your thread is a duplicate. From now on, why don’t you do us a favor and check for that before starting new threads.)
A theist (of the old, almost animist school) would say that you can’t know the mind of God, so you can’t judge what Gods intentions might have been. Perhaps God did it to test the people of Haiti. Perhaps he did it to draw attention to the plight of Haiti, so that change can be made and future generations helped out. Perhaps God did it because of some future event that we can’t possibly know about, but that will be profoundly effected by this disaster.
The thing is, it’s clear that God (assuming such a being exists) does not always do things that are beneficial to INDIVIDUALS. In fact, quite the contrary…there are many stories about how God fucked over this individual or that one, but with some ulterior motive involved.
Because, as I said, a theist would say that you, a mere human, can’t possibly know the mind of God, or what Gods motives or intentions were in this event. Perhaps God caused this event to make you aware of the plight of the people of Haiti, and for you to pray and give generously to their improvement.
You are assuming that you could understand the mind or motives of an omnipotent and immortal being who created the universe and who thinks in terms of billions or trillions of years and billions or trillions of humans (and perhaps other beings on other planets) throughout the course of the entire life cycle of said universe. See how silly your projections are?
Anyway, blah blah blah. You keep repeating the same theme. Clearly you are NOT a theist, so none of this is going to make any sense to you. Basically, I’m not a theist either, but I can certainly see this kind of thing through their own perceptions and perspective. If you believe in God, and if you believe that every event is caused by God (something most theists DON’T believe, btw), then you would basically have to understand that God doesn’t always do things that are good for every individual, or even every nation…in fact, God works beyond those purely human limitations or time scales. S/he is dealing with things on a cosmic scale, and doing things for reasons that are simply not fathomable to us mere mortals.
It’s not “ignorance”; it’s pointing out the stupidity and hypocrisy. They claim that God is omnipotent, and give God credit for anything good. But evil? Nope, God never takes the blame.
But that’s an argument against being religious. If you can’t understand God’s motives, then how do you know they are good? How do you know them at all?
If God’s behavior is indistinguishable from indifference or malice, we should logically treat him as indifferent or malignant.
Further, the believers who shrug off accusations against God with “he’s unknowable and incomprehensible” are clearly either liars or hypocrites. Otherwise, they wouldn’t they turn around and tell everyone about how God is good and about all the things God wants people to do. His supposed unknowability vanishes as soon as they are done for the moment making excuses.
So, what then is the point of praying for the people of Haiti (or praying to mitigate any other catastrophe)? If there is some reason known only to God and beyond human comprehension for what happened, how would praying change that? Seems awfully presumptuous for lowly mortals to ask an omniscient omnipotent being to change what they presumably have a good reason for doing - sounds like a good reason for a divine smackdown all by itself.
You don’t, since by definition you can’t know the mind or motives of such a being. You would have to assume that an all powerful being who created the universe would have ultimately good motives, even if in the short term the motives were not good. I don’t see it as an argument against being religious…well, anymore than I see religion itself as deeply flawed. But that’s MY world view and I can look at things from another perspective.
That’s like saying that, if you were a cell and someone came along and destroyed you with a nasty dose of radiation, that that someones motives had to be either indifference or malignant, when in fact they were a doctor trying to save the entire organism, even if it cost you, the up right and noble cell you were, pain and destruction. Again, you can’t know the mind or purpose of such a being, assuming it existed, because our own thought processes and world view are so different. It’s hard to even imagine a being that would be immortal, and how something like that would view the universe, let alone a being that was immortal and omniscient, and actually created the universe and everything in it. If one assumes such a being exists, then an individual human (or even whole races of humans, perhaps even all humans) are the equivalence of that cell.
Not necessarily - one can do pretty well by sucking up to tyrants, assuming you can get yourself into the inner circle and he’s not so capricious that he lashes out against his sycophants.
Once you get into the top ranks you should take care not to “fail” them, though. Being force-choked can ruin your whole day.
You do realize that this sort of argument only works if the being is not all powerful, right? If a method were developed to cure cancer without chemotherapy, then chemotherapy would become a malevolent option. Sacrifices are only justified if they are necessary, and the end doesn’t justify unnecessary means.
Ah…well, there you have me. I have no good answer to this, assuming an immortal and all seeing entity who is following a plan and motives all it’s own.
I don’t follow the last part though. If one assumes this being is following it’s own plan and has it’s own motives, and thus that prayer is no vector for redress or even appeal, then said being will be as indifferent to giving a fresh ‘divine smackdown’ as it would be to modifying it’s actions to alleviate the event.
Because it makes being religious pointless. Even if there IS a God, why bother following one that you don’t know the motives of, and can’t predict the actions of?
And from that cell’s “point of view”, regarding the radiation sender as indifferent or malignant would be the right decision.
Which God apparently does, given his noted lack of concern over who gets smacked by hurricanes, earthquakes and so on.
Perhaps the diety doesn’t like being whined at. I know that when I hear the kids whine about having to go to bed/suffer and die horribly, it doesn’t make me any more patient with them. (And it certainly doesn’t inspire me to let them stay up/live!)
Would that theist tell us to ignore the Ten Commands? Or the teachings of Jesus? How could we possibly interpret such things correctly, given the ineffability of God’s mind?
How can we trust Jesus’ motives when he tells us how to get to heaven? Maybe he’s just screwing with us. Since His intentions are by definition unknowable to us and all.
It was just an example, but no, I don’t see that. Leaving aside the confusing aspects of cures for cancer while still using chemotherapy, and ends justifying or not justifying means (to an all powerful, immortal being??), I think it comes down to motives, which, assuming such a being exists, we’d be completely unable to understand or put in any kind of context we would comprehend. Our world view is completely different than that of even an immortal being…or goals, motives, time frame, perceptions, etc, are completely at odds with a being that doesn’t age, doesn’t die, etc.