The Iraqis say farmers shot it down. The US scoffs.
Well, why not? A lucky shot or a well placed one, either way, I don’t see why it’s “impossible”. They had AK 47’s, or whatever.
Peace,
mangeorge
Supposedly the Apache is sufficiently armored in critical places as to make rifle fire ineffective. It’s supposedly the most advanced operational attack helicopter in the world. A bunch of peasants with AKs aren’t supposed to be able to knock it out. Boy, os the Army’s face red!
Besides, they do make a pretty good point. It just dosn’t look shot up enough to have been shot down.
OTOH, according to this New York Times story the seems to be little doubt the WERE in fact shot down. It’s really a question of how much firepower was necessary to accomplish it.
It’s all spin. Define “farmer”. The Iraqis want the world to think of a lone, peaceful farmer who takes up his trusty rifle and downs the high-tech Apache.
“Farmer” could also mean guy #10 in a circle of 20 armed with AK-47s who open fire on the Apache; the first nine guys get taken out by the Apache, but by the time they get to #10 they have taken enough damage to force them down.
The Apache is armored and very survivable, but get twenty guys with machine guns and tell them all “Aim at the tail rotor” and eventually you’ll get lucky.
It’s all spin. Define “farmer”. The Iraqis want the world to think of a lone, peaceful farmer who takes up his trusty rifle and downs the high-tech Apache.
“Farmer” could also mean guy #10 in a circle of 20 armed with AK-47s who open fire on the Apache; the first nine guys get taken out by the Apache, but by the time they get to #10 they have taken enough damage to force them down.
The Apache is armored and very survivable, but get twenty guys with machine guns and tell them all “Aim at the tail rotor” and eventually you’ll get lucky. Now the question is: are these guys “farmers”, or a loosely trained militia? Would you call the National Guard tank commander in Kuwait a “banker” when describing his attack on Umm Qasar?
Spin, baby!
Apologies for the double post above. :smack:
The second one contains my complete thoughts!
LOL, pilot141! Take out the tail rotor, and you’ll get some spin, alright! That wouldn’t be VF-141, would it?
radar ralf , no, I was an Air Force airlift guy (C-141s), not a Navy fighter guy.
I know, we’re all disappointed!
VF-141? Hey, I don’t have that patch in my collection!
I think it’s more likely that the helicopter was brought down by a mechanical failure of somesort. I didn’t see any holes that didn’t belong on it.
It’s a shame though. The latest reports say that it has been destroyed. I always hate it when a perfectly good aircraft gets destroyed.
They did say a group of peasant farmers shot it down.
A lot of, if not most, armor depends on angle to deflect bullets. Maybe the pilots were flying too low, and didn’t take the threat seriously enough.
Who knowa. It’s dust now. Sorry, Johnny L.A.. You couldn’t afford the fuel anyway.
I hear helicopter pilots all over the world snickering.
Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And hovered out of ground effect on semi-rigid blades.
Earthward I’ve auto’ed and met the rising brush of non-paved terrain,
And done a thousand things you would never care to
skidded and dropped and flared low in the heat soaked roar.
Confined there, I’ve chased the earthbound traffic
and lost the race to insignificant headwinds;
Forward and up a little in ground effect
I’ve topped the General’s hedge with drooping turns
where never Skyhawk or even Phantom flew.
Shaking and pulling collective, I’ve lumbered
the low untrespassed halls of victor airways,
Put out my hand and touched a tree.
snicker 
Here’s another song for you fling-wing drivers:
Oh, the Jesus nut will save your butt,
Be sure it’s good and tight.
You’ll get religion when you go,
On each and every flight.
So say your prayers each time you climb,
Up in God’s most perfect sky,
'Cause if that Jesus nut comes off,
You can kiss your ass goodbye.
I always pay special attention to the Jesus nut. (And everything else on the rotorhead for that matter. When you see what’s up there… it’s best not to think about it. 
)
Helicopters, even armored ones, are extremely vulnerable targets. On an aircraft, there are so many places where one critical hit could disable a necesary flight system - airplanes largely escape the threat of small arms through altitude and speed, helicopters don’t have that benefit. Though heavily armored for a helicopter, in the relative sense, it’s not very well armored in an absolute sense.
Having seen extended video coverage of the Apache, I too am confused about just how it came to come down.
But (unless it was all well stage managed) The farmers were a group of 6-9 oldish fellows, armed mostly with HUNTING RIFLES that looked laughable, and maybe 3 automatic somethings.
I was looking for cues and clues, but there was no indication of others, military or otherwise in the area. You know how it is when a bunch of random folk get on camera, and there was no special background noise, no people making eye-contact to groups off-screen that I could detect.
By the time the camera had finished taking photos, a group of at least 20 locals had gathered and started showing off.
Which left me thinking it all may have been a mechanical fault, as the 'copter didn’t look damaged at all (perfect landing) and even at my most ironic it’s hard to imagine the scenario of it being ‘shot down’. I dunno helicopters though. They sure wouldn’t have seen these guys as threats!
Although I will give the locals the benefit ror having ‘captured’ the airmen…
And remember, the TV crew must have taken time to get there, so there can easily be some element of stage management about it.
Sorry, but I did find it all a bit ironic, especially as Rumsfeld was busy declaring all aircraft catagorically accounted for within the same hour.
I’m just withholding judgement on both media versions…
Johnny L.A.: How about the transitional patch from VF-101 to the West Coast training squadron? uh… I can’t remember the numerical designation… it was VF-101 on the East Coast and VF-1something1 on the West Coast before it became VF-1… was it VF-191? Any naval aviators out there who can help? Are you interested only in official patches, Johnny L.A.? Only fighter squadrons? Only Navy? Only military? I may have a few duplicates laying around from units I was a part of… I have a friend who collects dress blue sleeve art. That’s the patches that were sewn inside the roll-up part of the dress blue uniform jumper; highly unauthorized and sternly discouraged. Some sailors actually purchased an additional set of dress blues so they could have this and other stuff sewn on their “liberty uniform.” I don’t know current practice, but for a time, the unit designating “rainbow” on the shoulder of the jumper was not authorized; this was because it was too recognizable and caused “disagreements” on liberty - especially when alcoholic beverages were involved.
VF-191? That would be “Satan’s Kittens”. My mom had a friend when I was a kid who did some sort of work with VF-191. (Secretary? Fund-raising? I don’t remember. She was married for a time to the ordnance officer on Enterprise and spent a lot of time at NAS – now MCAS – Miramar.) I do have that one. VF-101 is the “Grim Reapers”, and I do have that one as well. Almost all of my squadron patches are the designes from the early-1970s to the present.
My collection is mostly military squadron patches (including “type” patches such as the Tomcat, Hornet and Phantom ones) and NASA patches (including all of the Apollo, a good number of STS, and some other NASA programs). My non-military patches include such ones as Cessna, Hamilton-Standard, South Bay Boating Club Polar Bears (I got in when I was five, but that’s another story) and flags (U.S., England and Canada); maybe a couple of others.
Very funny. You guys really shouldn’t drink that stuff you make yourselves.
Explain the snickers, please. It’s a macho thing, right?
At a guess, I think that ‘flying too low’ is the very definition of a helicopter pilot. It’s what they do
Even with a buncha farmers shooting at them? Tell me it ain’t so. :smack: