http://www.thecia.net/users/stewarte/apachehit.mpg
Beware for those on a dial up, it’s a long d/l… But then I am and I watched it. Well worth the wait.
Why were these men killed? I saw no signs of weapons at all. Looks to me like they were working in a farm field. They had to know the Apache was there. If they were bad guys would they not have run or fought back?
Help me say this was a necessary kill. Have our troops really been forced to kill just for killing?
There’s no context, I don’t think it’s fair to judge it either way.
I saw that posted as a “Wow isn’t this cool” link on another MB, accompanied by a statement that these were “enemy combatant” trying to sabotage a pipeline.
I have no idea if that is true or not, I decided not to reply since I found the whole thing incredibly distasteful. Yes, I too think guns are cool, yes, it’s fun with loud bangs and shooting, but I don’t think anything showing actual people dying is or should be a source for entertainment no matter who the people are.
What The Fuck Was That?
There’s a longer, uncut version out there somewhere. It shows the smaller pickup pulling up, the two men getting out, looking around, and after a pause, pulls out something long and cloth-covered.
One of the two men then runs it into the field and tosses it into a furrow, then runs away from it. While the camera is looking to the side, the small tractor apparently pulls up to the object and the driver dismounts, apparently to get it.
In the video linked above, after the first man is shot and the camera tracks back to the guy on the tractor, it looks like the man pulls a long strip of cloth off something just before the shells start impacting.
The first time I saw this video, the source said the men were trying to sneak an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) and launcher in close to a base. The theory, apparently (and I cannot vouch for the source- take it with a big grain of salt) was that the “farm” was close to a US base or camp, and in making his circuit of the field, the tractor driver would have gotten well within RPG range of said base/camp.
But who knows. The full version has radio chatter where a CO asks if they’re “sure” the object is a weapon, to which somebody replies “positive!”
We’re not given enough data. For example, why were they watching that spot anyway? Were they waiting, acting on intelligence that “suspected gun runners” were in the area and heading in such-and-such a direction, follow and advise? I rather doubt that the chopper was just flying about, spotted some trucks, and started plinking with a 30mm chain gun.
I would assume that there’s some reason for picking these guys off. I don’t know the context yet, so I can’t form an opinion.
There have been news stories about this recently:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html
I think there was a GD thread about it, but the search engine isn’t bringing it up for me.
I would agree with Revtim , there’s no context, so it’s hard to say. They probably did not know the chopper was there however, its night, and I believe the cannon has a very long range.
In accusations like this, you have to ask: why do you think that soliders would want to kill known civilians for no reason? For what possible motive? To sabotage their own effort to gain the people’s confidence?
I had heard that the people in question were seperatists/loyalists/whatever they are calling the “bad guys” who were trying to set up and/or hide an anti-aircraft gun, and disguised their activities by farming. However, I don’t know many people who are out farming at 11 at night with no lights on…
Well, just because there aren’t any weapons, or the men in question aren’t returning fire doesn’t mean that they’re not the enemy. Just because it’s not sporting doesn’t mean that it’s not legitimate. As a matter of fact, enemies that you can catch before they can shoot back or even know you’re there are the best kind.
For all we know, this film could have been shot in March of 2003, when the war was in its very early stages.
3/4 of the way through, when the wounded guy is rolling around, they confirm that he is wounded and tell the gunner to kill him. So a wounded person rolling around on a field is a valid target? Reverse this and imagine an American laying there wounded and being fired on. Bush would be on TV calling this an act of barbarism. Yikes.
Id have to disagree, its because its not sporting that it’s not legitimate. Even if these are the three most evil people alive, the fact that they were not returning fire kind of makes the guy with his finge on the trigger more of an executioner than a soldier, doesnt it? Even war criminals get trials.
With all that said, again, we dont know the context, nor the origins, nor can we see any great detail in there. Its very possible that there are small arms these guys are carying that we cant see, maybe theyre in the truck, maybe they’re that large pipeline/farm equipment object, we realy dont know.
And yes, were the nationalies reversed, the President would be on TV trying to stir up support, and the nation would be in arms. Maybe rightly so.
Don’t say “for all we know” when it’s actually only you that hasn’t got a fucking clue what you’re talking about.
It took place on 1 December 2003. The ABC story linked to above gives the date.
While i’m not a military person myself, i’m sure that any soldier or policeman could tell you that a wounded man can still kill you. Unless you’re absolutely certain that the target is unarmed or totally incapacitated, it’s best not to take chances.
Those guys could be doing anything… but even assuming they are insurgents it didn’t seem a clear cut thing. Hitting possible insurgents is one thing also… killing that wounded guy was nasty. I doubt he posed much of a risk. Though I guess they weren’t about too send ground troops in to clear the area at night.
Reminds me of that scene in Patriot Games movie... when they are just observing satelite footage of the Spec Ops killing people. Cold and tech warfare.
I never heard of Apaches being silent choppers... how far must the heli have been in order to remain undetected like that ? The FLIR image sure seems pretty close actually.Ummm, being full of 30mm chain gun ammo does not lend itself to being rescued out of the middle of fucking nowhere in a pretty much shithole country where the medical care would suck. I’d rather be dead. It seems humane to me. Note that I am not pro-war, or against Iraq, but it is a third world country. His chances of survival would be zip. You think that the American hospitals/doctors/whatever kind of medicine we have established would be very hospitable to the man?
Wow… instead of cold blood smoking the guy you think its a mercy killing ? You chose what you want to beleive in… for all we know he might just have some shrapnel in his leg and arms. Not necessarily deadly.
Never mind that living prisoners sing names and info…
You did notice that he specifically made sure he hit that last pick-up too ? The wounded guy was far from it… needless material damage on purpose.
The M230 30mm automatic cannon has a range of roughly 5 kilometers, depending on visibility, nature of the target (armored targets need to be engaged at closer range), and other factors, I bet. Good stuff.
No, no, no. I’m just saying that I’d rather be dead, as my chances of survival would most likely be small. Not a mercy killing by any stretch of the imagination.