Another Star Wars comment...

Dredging up a perennial favorite. I caught most of SW on TV last night. Had another observation hit me that I’ve never noticed before.

When making the raid on the Death Star, getting ready for the final run, Luke sets up for the run with two other pilots backing him up. My question: how did Luke become a leader? I mean, he’s a rank amateur straight off the backwater farming planet. Sure one guy knows him from before, and he did come in with the Princess, but he wasn’t the pilot on that flight. So what’s the deal? Shouldn’t he be the junior lackey guy? Shouldn’t he be low man on the totem pole? Why does he get the cushy job of firing the torpedos rather than the fodder job of being the backup team, who’s only role is to fly some distance behind Luke so the Tie Fighters have to kill them first?

And what kind of a battle strategy is that? Oh, we’re getting chased by fighters and have no rearward guns. Let’s just sit here and get shot. Shouldn’t they do something cool like fly out of the trench and try to get behind the Tie Fighters or something? I mean, all they do is sit there and get shot. What a great strategy. :sheesh:

I just love how they get their asses shot off. They send something like 20 ships, and 3 come back (4 counting the Millennium Falcon). At least that is somewhat realistic - they were fighting that supposedly vastly overwhelming odds and all.

Is there a Red 4? I’m listening to the pre-attack readiness check, and the numbers seem to have some gaps. I don’t recall a Red 4. There may be some others missing.

Old complaints:

“If you strike me down, I’ll become more powerful than you can imagine.” Yeah, I’ll become an energy field that only other Jedi can see and talk to. I’ll have no influence in the material world except what I tell this one Jedi. Now that’s power. :rolleyes:

“See these blast points? Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.” Like the rest of the movie when shots are careening all over the place? They can’t seem to hit shit. Maybe it was placed explosive charges instead of blaster bolts he was talking about?

How else could they salvage the Jabba scene? It was originally filmed with some actor stand in, but GL didn’t like it and cut it for original release. For the restored version, they added in a digital Jabba, but there’s the problem that at one point, Han walks right behind and around him. It can’t be avoided or cut because it interrupts the whole scene. So they fudged it where Han walks across Jabba’s back, and Jabba makes some grimace face. It just feels wrong. It doesn’t work. What else could have been done? Craft it so Jabba does a quick piroette right at that point? Pretend Han takes a big* step?

I still hate the change to the Greedo scene. That scene was a classic. It set the tone for Han’s character. It worked. It was not gratuitous. It made sense. I completely understood and the advanced age of 9 that Han was forced to shoot first. Now it makes Greedo a blind incompetent nitwit with the reflexes of a sponge. How could Greedo shoot first at that range and miss? And Han’s slight head bob? Bah! That change practically offsets all the improvements through the rest of the movie.

The landspeeder scene when the stormtroopers stop Luke and Ben and question them. They made it too busy. I accept that GL wanted to make the market more crowded, more active, more like a busy port than a deserted street. But he put too much between the camera and the scene. Both a beast walking by, and a droid? It’s too much, and distracts from the real scene. Stuff in the background is fine, even a brief interruption right before, but not during the scene.

Okay, your turn.

Irishman, buddy…Star Wars is a good movie (not fantastic, IMHO, but certainly good relatively clean fun), but it is not the kind of movie that you’re supposed to analyze. All picking out the flaws and mistakes and gaps does is get you frustrated. Believe me, there are times when trying to makes sense of it all simply isn’t worth the trouble.

Anywise, you had specific beefs, so I’ll address them.

Luke leading the assault: Remember, he only led the final assault, and only because all the other leaders got blasted), and there’s evidence that he wasn’t completely raw (although this was unfortunately cut short by time restraints). And it is pretty likely that rescuing the Princes…from the Death Star, don’t forget!..would have boosted his prestige considerably. To my understanding, all the Rebel fighters were carrying proton torpedoes (inclduing one which fired before Luke); Luke was just the one who made his shot count.

As for the backups being sitting ducks. One, everyone was thinking on the fly in a constantly changing situation (“The guns…they’ve stopped!”); they didn’t have the luxury of sitting back and considering the effectiveness of their strategy. And two, the Ties were all over the place, not just behind. Someone had to protect the front man, and sometimes sacrifice of life is an unfortunate necessity.

Obi-wan having real power or whatever: Remember, Luke Skywalker was the last hope for the Jedis. No one else had the power or the knowledge to defeat Darth Vader, the lynchpin of the Galactic Empire (yes, yes, the Emperor was the boss, but he still needed his front man ). Additionally, Obi-Wan himself admitted that he was too old to effectively aid the rebellion in any physical capacity.

If you’re still not convinced, look at it this way: He died a warrior, on his own terms. Not bad compared to succumbing to a battlefield wound or disease, right?

Stormtrooper precision: Let’s get this straight; Luke Skywalker and company were not Jawas. I also have to believe that the Stormtroopers launched a carefully prepared ambush on the Jawa transport which bore no resemblance to the chaotic melee which broke out during the run through the Death Star. So maybe Stormtroopers aren’t very good when surprised or under pressure, but when they set the fight, they’re usually right on target (note the attack on the Rebel transport in the beginning…there’s ample evidence of this in the other two movies as well).

Oh yeah, one more thing: The Stromtroopers were ordered to allow the Millenium Falcon to escape, but of course not make it too easy to avoid drawing suspicion.

I haven’t seen the special edition, so I can’t help you with the new Jabba scene (which doesn’t make sense, IMHO…if he really was willing to give Han a second chance to pay his debt, wouldn’t Han have taken it after the destruction of the Death Star?), and I suspect that good 'ol Lucas may have simply overcompensated in the market scene. As for Han killing Greedo, the thing that’s always bugged me about it (other than both of them understanding each other despite speaking different languages) was that this was a classic case of the Fallacy of the Talking Killer. All Greedo has to pull the trigger and his task is done, yet he has to ramble on and on about how pleased Jabba’s going to be and how it’s too late for Han etc. etc. By shooting first, the movie at least gives a plausible reason why he didn’t kill Han (either his aim is horrible or he telegraphed his shot somehow and Han knew when to dodge) rather than excessive taunting and posturing, which, when you think about it, is a lot more idiotic.

What would have made it better, though, would be for Greedo to conclude with a line like “So, do you have any last words?”. Something like that, so what did him in was simply a misguided sense of honor and not stupidity. Makes sense, right?

Han Solo has massive force potential, IMHO… there are several subtle clues that point to it, not the least of which is his well known luck, and his amazingly fast reflexes.

Just a debate we’ve had…

Actually, when Han left the Rebel base on Yavin after getting his reward, he was attacked by space pirates. He was on his way to pay off Jabba. When his reward money got stolen, he went back to help Luke. (This was read in a novel and comes off like an explanation for the ‘parsec’ error, but hey, it works)

Irishman…

Well, the original plan was to have the bombers (the Y-Wings) take the run at the Death Star trench while the X-wings held off fighters (Y-wings have better targeting equipment). Anyway, the Y-wings got picked off really quick. Then Red Leader took a couple guys in, and HE failed. So Luke WAS the “low man on the totem pole”.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of the Rebel forces consisted of young snots like Luke, fresh off the moisture farm and bearing their last-night birth certificate.

They didn’t have time for dogfighting. They had a friggin’ Death Star about to blow away their base. In that situation, the best you can hope for is “get in fast and hope for the best”.

Yeah. The Star Wars CCG had a Red Four card. I imagine that Lucas decided to not have all the pilots check in (there were 30 in all) since that would have been REALLY boring. It IS a movie, after all.

Because he was stricken (sp?) down, he was able to get Luke to see a BETTER teacher, and ultimately led to the destruction of Vader, the Emperor, and the saving of a whole bunch of Ewoks. Yay.

What the hell are you talking about? Let’s see YOU try to accurately hit a target fifty meters away with a whole tenth of a second to aim. I say that those Stormtroopers were pretty damn accurate for their situation… just because they didn’t hit their target, that doesn’t mean their aim sucks.

It was an interesting scene, and it provides a few interesting exchanges 'tween Jabba and Solo, and develops the Solo character a bit more. However, I think Lucas put that in just so he could digitally insert Boba Fett, the coolest character in all of Star Warsdom.

Anyway, they should have made Jabba bigger… that’s really the only problem. Also, they COULD have just refilmed that few split seconds when Solo walks behind Jabba, with a Solo-standin seen only from behind. That way, they could shown Jabba turn completely around to follow the movement of Solo.

You and everyone else. In fact, that re-made scene rank, in terms of pure suckiness, right up there with Jar Jar Binks and that Midichlorian crap. I say that we all just pretend that it didn’t happen.

I disagree. I think it simply helps to emphasize that Mos Eisley is truly the Armpit of the galaxy. Low-tech backwater tranportation methods intermingled with high-tech semi-sentient droids, with all manner of exotic aliens thrown into the mix. You could practically SMELL the Dewback sweat.

DKW…

Correct. Y-wing bombers carry 8 torps, X-wing fighters carry 6.

In one of the X-Wing books, Wedge Antilles gives his own thoughts on the situation… he knew that he existed simply to be another set of shields so Luke could make the shot. In a crisis situation, everyone can’t be equal.

Tristan…

Nah. He’s as blind as the rest of 'em. In The Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson, Luke discovers a method to test if someone has Force potential. This method includes mentally probing their deepest subconscious mind… if they’re Force-aware, it resulted in a telekinetic push against the intruder. Han was tested, and came up negative.

Which novel did you read this in? Some books are “official”, while some books are nothing but rubbish with the “Star Wars” name slapped on 'em.

If it was printed before 1992 (when Timothy Zahn’s Heir To The Empire was printed), chances are it’s not regarded as “official”.

I agree with some of the criticisms of the special edition, and I have one of my own. In the original, when Luke sees the Millenium Falcon for the first time, everyone in the audience is seeing it for the first time too. And while we’re all oohing and aahing over this cool spaceship, Luke says “What a piece of junk.” It was like a bubble bursting. Before Star Wars, spaceships in movies were always grand and pristine and worked perfectly. Star Wars was the first movie I saw that said a spaceship could be like a jalopy, fast as lightning but sometimes the wipers didn’t work. And that scene with Luke played on that just perfectly. In the special edition, the scene with Han and Jabba shows us the Falcon earlier in the movie, and that undermines Luke’s punchline.

As for the Death Star, the rebels never should have blown it up. Think about it. Energy beams were shooting off with absolutely no warning, blast doors came crashing shut with no safety mechanism, and there were bridges over deep pits with no safety railings. The place was an OSHA nightmare. If they’d just left it alone, the Death Star would have killed more Stormtroopers by accident than the rebels could ever hope to take out on their own.

I think alot of complaints are valid and bugged me too. But as a die hard fan and dedicated nit picker here goes a litte IMHO:

I think DKW hit this one. Luke was just the next one up to give it a try. IIRC the X-wings were only supposed to provice support for Y-wings that were the main bomber/weapon against the portal. As for the others acting as sitting ducks I think what is more likely is that GL is using the concept of the wingman (see Top Gun). Now as for the strategy in general I think there are some concerns.

  1. They knew that the exhaust port was at the end of a trough per Adm. Akbar’s briefing based on the data Leia obtained. Knowing this I would have hoped for a little better strategy. They seemed to spend too much time in the trough. It would have been interesting if we could have seen a Y-wing attack to see how they would have gone at the port. And where are the guided missiles?

  2. The guns stopped because TIE’s were entering the trough and they didn’t want to hit them. I wonder why other X-ings didn’t pick up on this and go for the port. I can only assume they were busy with other things.

This I think would be a question best answered by a true hard core fan. Five bucks says that someone somewhere has a list of every call sign. Me? I gotta life. :rolleyes:

I’ve always associated the Force with God (the driving force of the Universe, call it what you will) and the Jedi with Catholic priests (exclusive devotion to the Force, strong beliefs regarding good vs. evil, the robes). I think what Ben is refering to is that when he is dead, he will have not only a more direct line to the Force, but the ability to effect those not in his direct, physical presence. At the end of Empire IIRC he also “talks” to Yoda.

What I found intersting in the series was how Jedi died. Good Jedi’s (Ben, Yoda) disintegrated gracefully into the great beyond. Meanwhile, bad Jedi’s (the Emperor, Darth Maul) basically exploded in a rage. 'course this begs the question: what about Vader and Qui-jon whose physical form persisted after their passing. Anniken’s appearance at the end of Jedi IMHO is eveidence of some kind of redemption. We’ll hafta wait for QJ.

I think DKW also hit this one. IIRC in that scene Luke is saying that Sand People had attacked the Jawa, but Ben was correcting him based on the blaster points. As for precision, I would argue (as DKW alluded) that the Imperial troops were very well trained, but could not adapt to new or novel environments. I think the fact that X-wings, and not Y-wings, were attacking the exhaust port speaks to this. Also, you’ll remember that in Jedi the Rebels are getting their butts kicked until the force field on Endor (which was lost due to the StormTrooper’s inability to adapt to Ewok battle tactics) was destroyed.

I think we’ll hafta wait and see here. In Menace we see Jabba during the race scene and I think GL, when thinking about the prequels, was trying to tie them together with the already released installments. I think Jabba and the spice planets and the Clone wars (remember Luke says “You fought in the Clone wars?”) will be developed. I see the added scene as an attempt to provide continuity from the first three episodes.

Absolutely agree. I have nothing wrong with the dialog, but that blaster shot was just wrong. If nothing else it ruins the development of the character.

Again, I totally agree. Tatooine, IMHO, works better as an out of the way desolate place where an old Jedi and the prodigal son of another can live outside of the Dark Side’s knowledge (remember that the Darth Vader hunted down and killed all the good Jedi; Yoda lived on Dagaba because the density if life forms shielded him from detection). Adding all the other inhabitants in the SE makes in look like people actually care about this place. IMHO, Menace further polluted this. How could Ben (or Amadala) even consider hiding a young Luke from his father on such a central (yes, I know its in the Outer Rim) planet and, of all things, Annakin’s home planet. If (in Ep. 2,3) Darth decides to let Luke (and Leia, who remember was a very public figure in the Rebellion) go because of some cheezy “savior” reference, I may just hafta turn in my Light Saber.

Anyways, all this talk has made me wanna watch it for the 104th time. Thank god I still have my copies of the originals.

May the Force… no way, I ain’t that weak :stuck_out_tongue:

Or maybe the Sand People were just really, really poor shots… and so judging by the fact that the Sandcrawler was hit at all, it must have been Stormtroopers. :slight_smile:

Except for that one in TPM sniping pods moving at 900kmh from 100 meters away…

For all you Phantom Menace bashers, just be aware that there are two more movies to go to complete the tale yet, and much of what was established in Episode 1 was deliberate and will be further clarified in the new movies.

This includes Jar Jar Binks, and Midichlorians, and Senator Palpatine’s insidious plans, and Amidala being a democratically elected Queen, etc

And Boba Fett.

And The Clone Wars, of course.

Just think, the Empire would have won if the Death Star’s death ray didn’t take forever and a day to boot up. For ease of use, the designers should have included a large flashing button with a big red arrow pointing to it that says “Push here to blow shit up.”

I am reminded of the ending of “Firefox,” when Clint Eastwood’s character desperately is trying to figure out how to say “fire the backward missiles” in Russian because the souped-up plane he is flying in only responds to Russian thoughts.

from James Caroll

There is a strong implication throughout the series that a Jedi’s power increases with age and use. Older, more powerful Jedi’s corpses will disintegrate when the body is vacated (the Emperor, Obi-wan, Yoda)

Darth Maul, Qwi-gon Jinn, and Darth Vader were relatively young (Vader and Qui-gon were roughly middle aged, as opposed to the elderly Emperor, Obi-wan, and the nine-hundred year old Yoda. Darth Maul, being Darth Sidious/Palpatine’s apprentice, was a youngun, though you couldn’t tell it by the face paint) Darth Maul’s corpse did not disintegrate upon his death.

What I want to know is, how could Palpatine/Darth Sidious, being so strong in the Force, sit there right under the noses of the Jedi Council and escape their notice? That was the main thing that disturbed me about TPM.

SPOILER ALERT:

Boba Fett is indeed in Episode II, but not in a way that is going to please a lot of people. Let’s just say that his father (or, maybe “source material”) is in the movie also, and there seem to be an awful lot of people named “Fett.”

There are a lot of good spy reports in Ep. II material at http://www.theforce.net and http://www.aldera.net. An interesting speculation on the plot for Ep. II can be read here.

Robot Arm-if they hadn’t destroyed the DS, sure, it may have self destructed, but it would also take out the Rebel bases first.

Spoofe-do NOT ever, EVER, EVER mention Kevin J. Anderson as a good source-got it? I remember the old Bantam BB where all us Star Warriors used to gather…KJA and Barbara Hambly were considered Bantha Fodder.

I’m hoping that Timothy Zahn will write a nice back story for MY all time favorite character, Mara Jade.

I knew it! I knew it! George Lucas has been all along planning for a slow, extremely painful death for Jar Jar Binks.

Let’s face it, folks, y’all can come up with whatever fannish explanations you like, but Imperial Stormtroopers can’t hit the broad side of a barn–when firing at Major Characters. When going up against Luke, Leia, Han, et al., the poor sods might as well just put their blasters to their own heads and pull the trigger, like the (in)famous Red-Shirted Ensigns on the classic Star Trek episodes. This sort of thing is a well-established old movie convention of course, and the Star Wars series is not particularly unusual in that respect.

Roger Ebert’s “Bigger Little Movie Glossary” refers to this phenomenon as “The Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.”

Not everyone makes the same mistakes as the Empire and its minions.

Spoofe- I read it in one of the X-Wing series. I can’t remember which one it was in, cause I read them one right after another, and they all kinda ran together.

[hijack]You play SWCCG? I’d been wondering if anyone else on the boards played…[/hijack]

I’ve heard combat veterans say that it’s amazing how many shots can be fired back and forth without anyone getting hit. The unbelievable part is how Luke and company were able to score a bullseye every time.

As for the scenes on the Death Star: Say you were in the Navy, and you’re out there at sea, just doing your job and minding your own business, when suddenly the ship is invaded by four maniacs shooting anything that moves. It’d be panic time no matter how well trained you are.

The way I always pictured it happening: The stormtroopers ambush the transport by firing a few shots to disable it. They then board the transport to search for the droids, and maybe go through the paperwork to find out where they went. I figure by this point they’ve done a census of all the droids on the captured rebel ship and now know the serial numbers or whatever of R2D2 and C3PO. I don’t know why all the jawas are killed. Maybe they somehow resisted.

Anyway, Ben’s comment probably just means that the Sandpeople didn’t have the brains to know how to disable the transport.

Snoooopy - Not only that, after all the preparations and loading time and scrambling Ties, the DS was seconds from wiping out the Rebellion in one swift stroke when Luke’s torpedoes did their work. Another well-documented movie cliche for you, which is why SW remains a good and not great movie.

Chocobo - I actually read something to that effect in the book that came with the special “Darth Vader package”. However, I always assumed that it was simply an explanation invented well after the fact (and a pretty lame one, IMHO). My understanding was that Jabba was far beyond giving Han a reprieve…hell, Greedo mentions this at least three times in his famous-last-words speech…and Han joined the Rebellion out of a newfound sense of loyalty, knowing that there was no turning back. Throwing in the Jabba scene pretty much for its own sake and then hashing up some explanation to the inevitable plot hole just rubs me wrong, canon or not.

JamesCarroll - Thanks for backing me up…you’re way cooler than all those video/computer game hardcore fans I keep butting heads with.

I won’t even try to speculate on the actual state of Tatooine and how Luke avoided detection all those years. As far as connections to Anakin Skywalker go, what about C3PO (I think someone mentioned this on Salon once)? In retrospect, it’s pretty weird that no one throughout the entire trilogy recognized the robot that Darth Vader himself built. No, not even Obi-Wan…

See, that is why one should not analyze SW too much. :wink: