The ROTJ novelization, and early drafts of the screenplay, do in fact have Obi-Wan telling Luke that Owen is his brother. Up until now, that has been accepted as canon, even though it didn’t appear in the film, and worked its way into other SW merchandise and storylines.
However, it appears now that this is NOT the case. Lucas has excised references to Obi-Wan and Owen’s brotherhood from the SW offical site.
Here’s what people have put together from spy reports, leaks, etc.: Anakin’s mother, Shmi, will be sold by Watto to help cover his losses from the podrace. Somehow, she will be freed (maybe). In any case, she gets married sometime during Ep. II to a farmer named . . . Clegg Lars. Who has a son, named Owen. So not only is Owen not Obi-Wan’s brother, he’s Anakin’s stepbrother!!
As far as why both Ben and Luke were on Vader’s home planet, let’s just say that something is going to happen during Ep. II that will make Anakin never want to return there. That doesn’t cover it all, but it will be extremely important.
What is the training period for a Jedi? Anikin was too old according to Yoda. He was a heck of a lot younger than Luke. Moreover we saw Obi-Wan just finish his training in SWE1TPM. If Anikin was roughly ten years old, maybe Jedi Training is kind of like a school career? Start in first grade at age 6 (give or take) and keep learning through what we earthilings call “college years,” when you finish your training as an esquire or ‘Padawan’? That’s the only reason I can think of that Obi-Wan cites Yoda as his teacher though we see him coached by Qui-Gonn in SWE1TPM.
Do these speculations jive with any ‘official’ info from Lucas?
So it takes <Answer #1> years to complete Jedi Knight Training – How much time elapsed between the evacuation of Hoth and the showdown at Bespin in ESB? As we’re following the Millenium Falcon along it seems like the better part of an (earth) day being chased around by the Empire Ties and Destroyers until they ‘float away with the garbage.’ Maybe a few days of space travel to the ‘Lando System’ Another day at Bespin 'til Vader is revealed. Another day of torture. Add a few more days for padding and what do we have? A week? Two weeks if we generously pad it? Okay, let’s generously pad it. A couple weeks, give or take a few days.
Fast forward to ROJ: Luke has already held his own for a while against Vader (who had been training since he was ten) in their first encounter; plus when he returns to Yoda, Yoda tells him that no more training do[os he] require and that he is merely one face-off with Vader away from becoming a Jedi Knight. Are you seeing where I’m going with this? Are we to believe that Yoda compressed 16 years of Jedi training into a 16 day (or fewer) Jedi Crash Course? I mean, sure, those were desperite times and all, so Yoda’s probably going to skim over some of the finer points of Knighthood, but we’re still talking of a factor of 1:320 here. Sure, he’s the son of the Chosen One and all, but as we saw on Dagobah, Luke wasn’t a real swift learner…always with him it can not be done.
But, Luke comes back after his fall to Vader in ESB to effectively defeat Vader (training since 10 yrs old) in their very next encounter with no further training.
???
And now that I think of it, Yoda contradicted himself by saying “Unfortunate that you rush off to face him before you finish your training.” but just before he said that “no more training do you require.”
Was Yoda just bullshitting Luke into thinking Luke was a Jedi, because all Yoda really wanted Luke to do was to ‘reach’ his father? Is Luke not a Jedi at all?
Which brings me to the final face-off…
Okay, a Jedi cannot strike down his enemy out of anger, fear etc.? So young Luke THROWS DOWN HIS WEAPON because he is a Jedi, like his father before him. I’m all for non-violent resistence, but we’re talking about friggin’ Knights here!! Plus, Obi-Wan took out D. Maul with what I interpreted as just a little bit of anger and aggression, yet he didn’t go to the Dark side. So what is textbook Jedi procedure to confronting evil Sith leaders? Arbitration and negotiation?
You have to remember that the Millenium Falcon’s hyperdrive was not functional, which means that they traveled from Hoth to Bespin at sub-light speed. The journey would have taken months, if not years (well, ok, not years). And I don’t think Vader or the Emperor would have had any trouble biding their time waiting. Remember also that Vader and Company got to Bespin before Han, Leia and Chewie. And Luke was getting 24/7 training, with no time off for recreation or negotiating trade deals between insignificant planetary governments. I imagine that when Obi-Wan (or Anakin, for that matter) were being trained, they got to go outside and play once and a while…
Also, when Yoda told Luke, “no more training do you require”, he had already faced off with Vader once, and not succumbed to the Dark Side. And according to the ROTJ novelization, six months had passed between Luke’s confrontation with Vader. Presumably, Luke had spent that six months sitting in a cave, meditating or whatever, and honing his powers. And trying to figure out how to rescue Han from Jabba the Hutt.
Also, Luke’s father was the result of a, um, virgin birth, “concieved by the midichlorians” or whatever. So Luke would probably have been stronger in the Force than your average bear even without the intensive training.
I also think Yoda’s reluctance to allow Anakin to be trained had more to do with the fear that he would be likely to succumb to the Dark Side than it did with his age. That fear was proven to be justified. “Too old to begin the training” seems to be Yoda’s default excuse when he doesn’t want to train a would-be Jedi.
I also think that Vader being Luke’s father is forshadowed early in ESB- remember his protectiveness toward Luke in his conversation with the Emperor- “He’s just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him…”
Well, keep in mind that Luke had been training on his own between Star Wars and Empire, which was a time period of three years (which explains his mediocre ability to use telekinesis on his lightsaber). Then there was another year since the (beginning) of Empire and the (beginning) of Jedi.
Really… then that would mean that the events in Empire took six months total to transpire (assuming that the SW universe uses a 12-month calendar). Which would make more sense, as the Rebel’s loss at Hoth was supposed to be extremely devastating… it would have taken them a long, long time to regroup. This also provides an accounting for the travel time from Anoat to Bespin (it also makes Boba Fett seem like a VERY patient SOB… and the patient ones are the deadly ones).
Anyway, let’s address earlier posts…
Well, keep in mind that the attack groups weren’t planned out in advance. Red Leader probably noticed Luke’s ability in the preceding battle, and thought “Hey, that punk’s purdy good”, and randomly picked him to lead the final attack.
You wanna know the REAL answer? It was a plot device. Plain and simple. Is that a satisfactory answer? Hell no, it takes the fun out of the series. So we have to provide an answer that DOESN’T ruin things. To that end, we have to assume that Obi-wan wouldn’t have been able to provide the amount of help that he did had he survived.
I’m basically using his head as a size measure. In Jedi, his head was about four feet wide, maybe more. Remember, there’s that scene in which Leia was placed right next to him. Jabba is significantly larger in Jedi than he was in SW, and it’s not just a matter of “he’s fatter in Jedi”. He’s bigger… period. In TPM, he was also a relatively large size, as well.
In short, that whole Jabba scene in Star Wars, while interesting, should have either been done right or not at all.
I just watched the movie, and I know which scene you’re referring to now. I thought you meant a part right when Luke and Co. entered Mos Eisley, rather than the part where they’re talking with the stormtroopers.
What you’re trying to say is that there were too many DISTRACTIONS in that one part which seem gratuitous. And I agree.
I agree that you should be careful about which books are used for corroborating information. But my point for which I used Anderson’s books as a source was whether or not Han has Force potential. In Anderson’s series, he practically comes out and says “Han has zero, zilch, none, nada, NO Force potential”, which is why I used that example.
My guess? He wanted to bone Leia. Remember, he WAS an irresponsible blowhard back then.
I would go with the “surface guns” idea. Remember, there were hundreds of 'em. Even if they weren’t that accurate against starfighters, the sheer amount would exponentially increase the odds of a lucky shot.
But, again, the real answer is the least-fun one: It’s a plot device.
Well, keep in mind that the energy transfer from the hypermatter core to the surface of the Death Star had to travel through 60 kilometers of gun. Also, much like a nuclear weapons’ launch, there’d be many safeguards to pass through before you can even begin the countdown.
I don’t know, but he should be dragged out into the street and shot. ALL protocol droids are planned like that… I think they’d be gay if they were programmed with sexual desires. And everyone knows that gay people are more civil than straight people (I’m kidding, I’m kidding!)
No. The first time the Death Star was used was a test-fire on the prison planet Despayre (incidently, Despayre was where the Death Star was built, using the prison’s population as brute labor… some gratitude). I guess it took a while for the mainstream galaxy to find out about the destruction of some random hunk of dirt in an ass-end-of-space system.
And as for my favorite Star Wars character… well, I’m witing a SW novel (over a hundred pages! Go me!), so one of THOSE characters is my favorite (I won’t say who, since I KNOW I’ll get published some day!).
Anyway, my favorite is probably Face Loran, from the latter parts of the X-wing series. He was an interesting character.
Also, I had a soft spot for Belindi Kalenda from the Corellian trilogy.
You’re right! I had forgotten that, but it is in Empire. Thanks. So it seems Yoda has this pattern with Skywalkers.
bserum asked:
I haven’t seen anything from Lucas other than the movies. From them, my take on it is that children who show ability to use the force begin an education at an early age, because it would be so easy for them to be corrupted and turn dark unless they are coached in the morality of the force along with their growing in ability. Thus the feeling Aniken was too old - though if he showed that much latent ability, wouldn’t the Jedi have been ecstatic to start him even late rather than let him continue and not learn proper training in the morality aspects? From the movies, your speculations seem spot on - there is a process, beginning as a Padawan (or is there an earlier stage?) and after learning control and learning the honor code and such, then following in an apprenticeship like Obi-wan was on, and finally testing and advancement to rank of Jedi Knight. So Obi-wan was at the end of Padawan stage.
Before TPM, I had assumed that Obi-wan had met Aniken, realized he had force potential, and tried to teach him on his own. TPM shows Obi-wan talking to the council about it, and getting reluctant permission from Yoda. That seems not to jive with my previous take, Obi-wan’s comments about taking it upon himself and thinking he could do as good a job as Yoda. Oh well, TPM messed up a lot of stuff.
Yes, it does seem awfully compressed. What used to be a long elaborate formal training process was turned into some basic coaching and prodding in the right direction. Mostly out of necessity and a lack of time. Yoda originally wanted Luke to stay much longer than his original time on Degobah - the whole fight over Luke leaving to save his friends and all. It bothered me that there was so much emphasis on needing to complete his training, but when he finally returns Yoda blows it off and tells him all he really needs to do is confront Vader.
Well, here’s my unofficial take on things. Luke is not really a full-fledged Jedi Knight, at least by the old standards. He is basically at the apprentice Padawan stage. He has the ability and been taught enough control that he can work the physical aspects of force manipulation, and just needs practice for them to improve. However, he doesn’t fully have the Jedi mindset, and still needs coaching in controlling his anger and hatred so that he doesn’t succumb to the dark side. The final confrontation with Vader and the Emperor showed his character strength, and thus finally made him a full knight in that aspect, but he still is a long way from fully thinking as a Jedi should. For instance, when fighting the Rancor. He is in the pit, trying to hide, then runs to the gate, and to kill it he makes the gate drop by throwing a rock at the activation panel. Okay, I would think that a full Jedi would have thought some simpler solutions. First, use the force instead of his arm to throw the rock. Second, bypass the rock and actuate the button directly with the force. Third, who needs the gate? Why not make the beast’s aorta or jugular burst? Surely a Jedi could find a sensitive blood vessel. Well, if not, there are still two intermediate steps before getting to what he did. So he still needs to learn a lot.
I think part of the situation depends on the stage of training that the Jedi is at. Older accomplished Knights and Masters are able to have self-control and let their emotions flow without overpowering themselves. Whereas Luke is still fresh and young in his training, and has a lot less control of self, so is more likely to fold. The youngsters have to be coached heavily to restrain their emotions, similarly to how we teach children not to bite and hate and be mean. Now I agree that throwing down his light-saber was a stupid move on Luke’s part - he just didn’t realize how vulnerable he was. If he’d been thinking, he could have put it away at his belt, or held it deactivated. But he thought the worst of the confrontation was over, Vader was negated and his weapon gone. Silly Jedi. So he gave a strong response to the Emperor in defiance that turned out to be a bad move.
Actually, I don’t think Luke was that successful in the first encounter. Remember, Vader was not trying to kill him. Vader was first trying to maneuver him into the carbon freeze chamber, and then after that you saw how Vader dominated the fight, beating him senseless with flying equipment and driving him out onto the catwalk. Luke showed some skill and moderate ability, but basically wasn’t killed because Vader was trying to turn him, not kill him. That fight was a total disaster for Luke, including losing his hand and having to jump off the bridge and risk death rather than join Vader or be sliced and diced more.
SPOOFE Bo Diddly said:
How do you come by that? The events of Empire seem to occur in the space of say a week. Maybe two, okay I don’t really know how long the Falcon was in transit to Bespin City, but it didn’t appear to be that long. However, between the two movies approx six months occurs. This allows time for the crew to hatch a plan, get Lando infiltrated, etc. Luke may have spent some of this time in meditation and such - he built a new lightsaber.
Hmmmm. Well remember that by Jedi he is kinda sickly - the yellowish color and sliminess are worse, and he’s much less mobile. Perhaps he bulked up some, too.
No, I don’t think that all protocol droids are that way, though we don’t really see any others’ personality - the one did make that rude comment to 3PO. But my comment was that C3PO was built and programmed by Aniken. That’s who the dolt was.
Wow. Typical SW, lot of territory here. I can’t remember who said everything, so just responses to individual queries this time.
Stormtroopers - Again, the reason they did so poorly against Luke, Han, and Leia (after absolutely kicking butt on Antilles’ ship) was that they were out of their element. They were assault troops; they were trained to invade enemy space and attack. I have no trouble belieiving that they’d have trouble in a situation with the tables turned, especially when taken by surprise from a ragatag bunch they wouldn’t expect much resistance from. And again, look at the evidence in the other movies. At Hoth, they absoultely routed the rebel forces despite Admiral Ozzel’s initial blunder and taking terrible casualties. In Cloud City, they were totally unprepared for Lando Calrissian’s change of loyalty and let everyone slip through their fingers. On Endor, they had the situation well in hand until those blasted Ewoks showed up. They were good troops, just not without weaknesses.
Luke/Anakin’s age: Remember, the Jedi Council rejected Anakin because 1) There was a Jedi Council 2) which was in a position to pick and choose. No such luxury in ESB, where Luke is the very last hope for Jedi (with the exception, maybe, just maybe, of Leia). It’s also very clear that Luke never reaches the level of Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan even at the end of ROTJ, so I have no problem believing in an “accelerated course”, either.
C3PO: Yeah I know…what a whiner. The worst part is, there isn’t even a good reason. It’s not a normal human trait, obviously, because he’s a robot. The people who’ve owned him certainly don’t like his whininess. It certainly can’t help him with his official duties, as someone already pointed out. This is the unsolved mystery of SW that really bugs me, which, again, makes the movies only good (and the jury’s still out on PM).
Greedo/Han’s debt: Again, the implication was that Jabba was well beyond forgiveness, something which Greedo spells out pretty plainly more than once. I’m willing to believe that he got killed simply because he wasted too much time posturing, but it’s still a pretty annoying movie cliche. I’m also pretty sure that Han at least tried to repay his debt sometime between NH and ESB, but was rejected (perhaps violently; Jabba wasn’t exactly known for subtlety), and that’s when he realized that he couldn’t go home again.
Still have a problem with “space pirates” as an excuse. I mean, he’s outrun, outfought, and outsmarted some very powerful ships for his entire career, and he also flew right up to the Death Star, took out two Ties, scattered Darth Vader’s, and flew away without a scratch. And you’re telling me that a lousy bunch of freebooters were able to best him?
Bloodlines: Pretty sure that Owen and Beru weren’t blood relations, although of course I won’t know for sure until the remaining movies come out. I’m also not buying into Anakin’s “virgin birth” until I see more evidence. All Shmi said was that “one day I just knew, somehow, that I was preganant” or something…you ask me, that’s just plain 'ol Lucasesque open-ended vagueness at work. All will be clear in time.
The main beef with Leia being Luke’s sister is that it makes some of the events in the previous movies…well, kinda gross. To some. (I personally have no qualms with kissing one’s sister, but then I have the entire…never mind. My secret. :)) But it doesn’t really contradict anything that’s come before, and frankly it looks a lot like one of those neat twists that the viewers don’t expect. Since this isn’t a real sticking point, I’m inclined to let it slide.
Jar Jar: Well, at least he can occasionally defend himself, which is more than C3PO’s ever accomplished. Still, the naysayers are right…he’s really annoying and doesn’t seem to have any real role in PM. (BTW I read the entire script and saw most of the movie at Suncoast and a local store.) Let’s all just hope that he’s a lot more rounded out in Episode 2.
Oh, I don’t think of Threepio as a whiner. He complains mostly to himself or Artoo, for comic effect. When dealing with others he’s very polite and even diplomatic (examples: “Master Luke” and re-interpreting Jabba’s speech). The only time he really screws up is when he switches off his communicator in the Death Star, nearly allowing the deaths in the trash compactor.
Spoofe-love the idea, but you have to be a published author first, and THEY have to approach you. Sucks, doesn’t it? All manuscripts sent in to Lucas get thrown in the trash.
however, do submit it the fan fiction site, which ROCKS! http://www.fanfix.com in case anyone forgot.
I’m such a fan, I actually LOVED TPM-hell, I even adore Jar Jar! (I’m sorry, he’s just sooo cute!) If that’s not a fan, I don’t know what is. I think the deal with Jar Jar is that, he’s somewhat primitive-but he is a loyal friend, and he is VERY persistant. Very protective and eager.
PErhaps Ben and Owen are sort of half brothers-they shared a mother, but not a father-so they’d still be brothers, but Ben would be no relation to Annie.
BTW, did anyone read Vector Prime? Am I the only one who doesn’t like the way the new books are going? Don’t get me wrong, I’m so glad about Mara Jade, and the “situation” with you know who (don’t want to spoil it)…but I mean, come on!
I doubt that Ben’s familial connections ever come into it. Obi Wan is just an old Jedi Knight who feels responsible for what Anakin has become, so he takes it on himself to guard over Luke, the new hope. Or perhaps Leia, though I guess Obi Wan never really thought of her as being a likely candidate.
Owen and Anakin are half-brothers. Obi Wan is not related to anybody.
Don’t say that, Guin! I’m still young and idealistic! Don’t quell my creative spirit just yet!
(Yeah, I knew the restrictions… don’t worry, I’m looking at this thing as being YEARS down the road, if at all).
Yes, I read it. It sucked. It was horrible. I cannot comprehend any other suckier hunk of shit to ever be spewed out of someone’s ass.
It’s a plot that’s been done (I mean, DONE done, not just a similar idea, it’s practically a repeat of Truce at Bakura and the Black Fleet Crisis mixed together).
The son-of-a-bitch author killed Chewbacca. Kill Lando if you have to, but not Chewie!!!
The author had zero comprehension of SW technology or terminology.
Ugh, you got that right. BTW, Kill Lando-did you used to frequent Jim Fisher’s Star Wars Humor HomePage?
I think that, as a follow up to the great new Thrawn Duology from Zahn, it sucked even worse! I mean, Vision of the Future kicked serious ass. I loved Shada and Karrde and Mara and Luke-FINALLY.
But this just, well, SUCKS.
I’m still trying to read it…it’s like, I got through another page…all right!
Dropping in for a brief comment. Regarding Episode I, aside from the suicide-inducing presence of that dumb-as-a-sack-of-hammers Gungan, the only aspect that bothered me was what appears to be a huge plot inconsistency. Admittedly, Qui Won wants to train Anakin because, according to the prophecy, he is the one who will bring balance to The Force.
Balance implies the presence of contradicting elements which, after balancing each other out, will reach a state of equilibrium. O.K. then, here is my problem: The Sith were all but extinct, whilst the Jedis were teeming with power. The scale was favorably tilted in the direction of the good guys. Ergo, whoever was going to balance things was going to act as a benefactor to the Dark Side rather than serving the commendable ideal of maintaining peace in the galaxy. Why then, in the name of Jabba’s ass, would Qui Won train Anakin?
His other option would be to leave the boy on Tatooine and risk letting the Sith find him and train him. At least if he takes Anakin on as a student, he can mold him for a while until he turns evil. Plus, he would have a huge advantage if he taught Anakin rather than someone else (“oops, I forgot to teach you how to defend against that attack, I’ll have to use it to destroy you”).
Or maybe Qui-Gon was just a self-righteous egotistical nit who thought he knew best for the galaxy, and as a result, the great Jedi Purge came about.
I mean, just because he was the best actor in the whole movie, does that mean that his actions were perfect?
Anyway…
What I think the “Balance” that was reached Force-wise was the disintegration of the Jedi systems. It had stopped being Force-oriented and had become Politically-oriented… it had strayed from its true purpose (the Jedi Order, that is). I guess it had become necessary to wipe the slate clean in order to bring balance.
The Jedi Council was unaware just what the prophecy referred to. The Balance of the Force? What does that mean?
The imbalance, at the stage of Episode I, had not even occurred, but Qui Gon knew that it would happen, and he felt that Anakin was the one who would rectify it.
He did. He brought balance back to the Force by destroying the Emperor in Episode VI.
That was one of my complaints. “Bring Balance to the Force” when the Jedis are the keepers of peace and justice? Sounds like a “bad” idea. Though I can understand a motivation to train him as a Jedi and try to prevent him becoming dark.
GuanoLad, that’s a great observation! I didn’t think of that.
Okay, I guess I couldn’t avoid asking The Big Question forever:
If I were totally unfamiliar with the extended Star Wars universe, having only seen the 4 movies, which Star Wars novels should I read, and in what order?
