Another triumph for the faith-healing sect

You are simply wrong about this. At least since the time of St Augustine (who was around in the 4th century AD, not long after the Christian Bible was compiled into something like its current form), standard Christian teaching has been that much of the Bible is not best understood literally, and, in particular, when its surface meaning conflicts with current science the wise Christian should accept the science, and look for a deeper, non-literal meaning, that is not in conflict with science, in the Biblical text. Largely for this reason, for most of the history of Christianity, reading of the Bible amongst lay Christians was discouraged by the Church authorities. Most Christians did not read the Bible and believe what they read there, they were told what to believe by priests who had been taught to interpret the Bible “properly” (or, probably more often, by priests who themselves had been taught what to believe and what to preach to their flocks by someone else at a higher level in the Church organization who was considered educated enough to read the Bible properly). For centuries the Catholic Church prohibited the translation of The Bible into vernacular languages, and discouraged laypeople from reading it, even in the authorized Latin version.

Widespread reading of the Bible by Christian laity did not arrive until the Protestant Reformation (and even then, only amongst Protestants). The notion that every word of The Bible is to be taken as literal truth is largely a fairly recent invention (going back a century or so) of certain especially extreme Protestant sects in America.

As an atheist myself, it saddens me to see so many atheists apparently buying into the idea that this aberrant brand of Christianity is the whole thing, or somehow the real thing. Of course such an extreme, irrationalist version of Christianity is much easier to refute than the more widespread, more nuanced forms that are closer to mainstream Christian tradition, but such refutations are unlikely to impress anyone. Rational refutations of Biblical literalism will not impress fundamentalist literalists, who have long since enthusiastically embraced irrationality, and they will not impress mainstream, traditional Christians who will justifiably regard the object of the refutation as a straw man that bears little resemblance to what they actually believe.

The vast majority of Christians in no way approve the sorts of things done by the people being pitted in the OP. It is a perversion of Christianity, but one which seems to get as much or more support from atheists as it does from most Christians.

Children hell, they shouldn’t be allowed to have pets

That wasn’t God’s will, that was my own rash decision! :stuck_out_tongue:

Well I, for one, am glad you did.:slight_smile:

Like “God exists”?

:stuck_out_tongue:

:slight_smile:

He didn’t promise that every believer would be able to, or say that people should stop seeing doctors. In fact, on at least one occasion he did send the people he healed to the local health board so they’d be able to go through the procedure required in order to be declared healed.

Hard to tell whether this is a deliberate straw man attack, or just very poor reading comprehension. I try to think the best of people, but it’s hard to understand how anyone who uses correct grammar can quote the part of my post you did, and then write such a non sequitur response to it.

Anyway, feel free to come back when you can cite Augustine telling Christians to treat the promises that Jesus made about eternal life as metaphors, not to be taken literally, or when you can cite me claiming mainstream Christians take the promises he made about healing, let alone every word in the Bible, literally.

Yes, he did.

But thank you for at least attempting to refute what I said, rather than the opposite of what I said.

Well that is easy enough to explain. 99.9999% (+/- .0000000001%) of us have some doubt about everything all the time. I don’t think any of us are perfect enough to have 100% confidence that something so incredible will happen thanks to our inherently skeptical human nature. Where there is doubt, then God gave us other ways to accomplish the task at hand. If faith alone cannot move mountains, get dynamite!

If dynamite works every time, why bother with faith?

What if you have dynamite faith! :wink:

Also, Jesus often spoke in metaphors and parables, using stories and examples to illustrate deeper meanings to spiritual truths. For example, from TS own cite:

Even someone trying to trip up believers with “you aren’t a real (blankety blank) unless you literally believe the Bible/Koran/Talmud” can grasp the metaphorical teachings of Jesus and other religious figures. Or he is just playing dumb. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But these people aren’t treating it that way. To them, it’s literal, they believe they have enough faith to move mountains.

Even without all that, dynamite still works. The faith part is unnecessary. Why bother with something that you already know from countless tries doesn’t work? Just skip ahead to the part with the dynamite and save some time.

Then what is the point? Why do Christians pray for anything, if the slightest speck of doubt makes their prayers useless? Why did Jesus give a dozen sermons on how wonderful faith is, if it only works one time in a billion?

Besides, Jesus said in several other places that you only need a mustard seed’s worth of faith (i.e., a tiny speck) to get what you want in prayer. If you consider that a contradiction, take it up with him.

Not only that, but there was a simpler time, before Lyell and Darwin and Spinoza, before even Luther, when most Christians had no doubt at all about their faith. There was only one Church in Western Europe, and while the rulers may have been cynical, the peasants had faith as pure as the driven snow. As Mr. Njtt so kindly pointed out, they weren’t even troubled by confusing verses in the Bible, because they didn’t read it; they were told what to believe by their priests (and just incidentally, those priests who had been consecrated by the power of the Holy Spirit, and who were the official intermediaries between the people and Jesus, took all but the most obvious poetry in the Bible literally, including a six-day Creation 6000 years earlier).

When the Black Death struck in the 14th century, these perfectly trusting peasants with their childlike faith didn’t pray for something incredible, they just prayed for normalcy — for their families and friends to not die horrible deaths. But they died at the same rate as the heathens and pagans and Muslims.

Jesus said that if you believe in him you get anything you pray for, and he said if you believe in him, you get eternal life. You have no grounds for taking one promise literally, and the other metaphorically, except that you can easily see that prayer doesn’t work any more often than random chance can explain.

It’s just hilarious to see Christians tie themselves in knots over this.

Atheist: Jesus meant what he said.
Christian: NO HE DIDN’T!!! Well, except for the eternal life thing.

Of course “cast a mountain into the sea” is a metaphor. It’s a metaphor for “anything you ask for.” You don’t have to be especially bright to see that, because Jesus made it explicit in the VERY NEXT VERSE:

What was that you were saying about playing dumb?

If that is the case, do you doubt your faith in Jesus Christ? What implications may arise from that?

Biblical literalism is a fairly recent school of philosophy, and generally it’s not followed by a majority of Christian denominations.

I think this is another “gotchya!” question to try and trip up people to prove some point about religion. If so, it’s been done to death. And either way, you need to study up on your religious history.

Its more self doubt than anything. I think I can be faithful and have a healthy tendency to evaluate my beliefs at the same time. I think it makes faith stronger when you aren’t afraid to question it.

And TS, like Guin said, same old same old.

Why don’t you take your smug fucking attitude to a relevant thread and stop hijacking the shit out of this one.

April R. when I was taking classes prior to changing denominations and becoming an Episcopalian, I liked what the rector said about our church

“Being Episcopalian means you don’t have to check your brains at the door.”