Another Worthless Celebrity Anti-Vaxer

The BBQ Pit
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Or they’ve ignored their medical/scientific training in order to espouse quackery.

Take another of the doctors on that list (please!) - Rashid Buttar, who was reprimanded by the North Carolina Board of Medicine for his activities.

"Rashid Buttar is an osteopath who believes that the cause of all chronic disease is “toxicity.” This doesn’t mean he thinks poisons or infections are the cause of all disease, however, because he thinks there are “energetic toxicities,” “psychological/emotional toxicities,” and “spiritual toxicities.”…
On November 20, 2007, the North Carolina Medical Board charged Buttar with providing therapies to several cancer patients “that were unproven and wholly ineffective. The therapies consisted primarily of intravenous administration of a variety of substances, none of which has any known value for the treatment of cancer. The substances included EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid), chromium, certain vitamins, and hydrogen peroxide.”

Other bright lights on the list include Raymond Obamsawin, notable for his dishonest use of measles statistics and HIV/AIDS denialism, Boyd Haley, a chemistry professor (antivax, anti-fluoride, big on “toxins”) who tried to market an industrial chelating chemical as a dietary supplement, an associate of Andrew Wakefield, and two southern California “celebrity” antivax pediatricians who are currently busy trying to distract public attention from a measles outbreak there (the unvaccinated patient of one of these peds, Bob Sears, was found to have caused a measles outbreak in 2008)

These are people whose qualifications are supposed to impress us? It looks like the same farcical collection of dingbats and pseudoprofessionals who’ve been high on the woo charts for a long time.*

*at least two of them are dead, but still made the list.

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[LIKE]

As I always say, you can always find at least 2% who will agree with any hypothesis, no matter how insane or impossible.

In this case, it appears that less than 1% of those 2% believe this crap.

183

It would be better if Dr. Oz actually was an idiot. He’s a fairly brilliant, Harvard-educated cardiothoracic surgeon, who would be doing the world a huge favour if he’d stick to his cardiothoracic surgeoning and leave the woo alone (oh, and cancel his show, too). He lends far too much legitimacy to the highly-questionable causes he gets behind.

184

Absolutely true. My neighbor grew up in Hawaii. In his freshman year book (which I have seen) there is a picture of then senior Barry Obama.

185

This was supposed to be at the top of my last post.
I recently heard a news report where they stated that the criteria for Ausberger’s syndrome has been refined because the original guidelines were too broad and general. There has also been some recent research showing cortex layer abnormalities in autistic brains. These are thought to occur during brain development in pregnancy. Childhood vaccinations would have no impact on this (unless someone wants to suggest that the mothers vaccinations were the cause).

I would not go far to say that I think there are not any possible side effect from vaccines. We may as science progresses find some, but the overall benefit of eradicating deadly diseases are huge.

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New to forum- but I’m finding this thread pertinent. I’m also pro vaccine.

My father was formally diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome at age 83. His neurologist did it so the assisted living would not throw him out for statements made/behaviors that had been typical and lifelong. (Sheldon Cooper, only more so). He had all the childhood diseases as he was born in 1920, and was vaccinated only against smallpox, and tetanus later when available. If you have ever had an MRI, you have benefited from Dad’s research, and his patents on the early timers. He was a successful electrical engineer. Socially, not so much;).

I have a smallpox vaccine scar, had measles mumps rubella chicken pox as a child- moms used to intentionally expose kids to get it over with. My mother got my sister and I some of the earliest polio vaccine- 1955- because there were children in my kindergarden who did get polio. I get regular scheduled TdaP immunizatios. Have had the shingles and pneumonia vaccines. I also get flu shots now, since they have been re-approved for Guillain Barre survivors. Hep B and A as well.

In a pretty long career in nursing, with the last 30 of them as a nurse practitioner, evidenced based medicine has become the backbone of reliable practice. Randomly assigned placebo controlled double blinded studies with a decent N do indeed prove (or disprove) hypotheses. Having pretty much always worked in or near large research and tertiary care centers, I’ve personally seen this process work, over time.

None are so blind as those who WILL not see, and like several of you, I used to do the “Are you STUPID” dance. (I do a lot of HPV vaccine counseling). It’s bad for my blood pressure, so now I mostly murmur about survival rates during epidemics. Virgin field stories come to mind.

Oh- and besides being vaccinated, I’ve had a Volvo with a rifle rack, read Temple Grandin, raise as much of my own food as possible, am quite limited in my choice of sexual partners as I’m both married and hardwired straight, all my grandparents were born in the US, and we all seem to carry the marksman gene. The only autism effects I seem to have is that I don’t care for sports events and drugs are not recreational at all. My sister is the same, plus she is an engineer. She doesn’t even drink.

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I just wanted to say this was a good answer to akrako1’s posts and much better than the scorn heaped upon his head (not undeserved). I doubt very few people change their minds when they are attacked in such a way. (On the other hand, akrako1 has had plenty of chances to read about the vaccine-autism non-link on the SDMB and still apparently believes it…)

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BTW, why does nobody ever protest the vaccination of dogs?

Think of the poor autistic dogs! :frowning:

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I agree, and was going to chime in with this but decided it wasn’t worth the pushback it would receive. But since you did anyway I will too.

Our most expert posters about vaccination seem to be some of the very worst at actually convincing anyone who isn’t already on their side. Taking such a militant, adversarial, “our way or the highway” approach to communicating with anti-vaxers is a huge part of the problem.

If someone appears to be a fanatic, even when backed up by evidence, they have already lost their credibility to all except those who already agree with them.

It is just preaching to the choir and getting lots of high fives and backslaps from those who already vaccinate but doing absolutely nothing to convince those who doubt them.

The fact is that there are adverse reactions to vaccines, and some of the ingredients are a very carefully measured scientific balance between toxicity and effectiveness. Denying this only cements in the minds of doubters that you are a fanatic who can’t be believed. It is important to acknowledge that there are absolutely risks involved in vaccination but they are a millionth, billionth of a trillionth less severe than the risks involved in not vaccinating.

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Come to think of it – has autism ever been observed in a nonhuman species?

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People who cannot counter the facts that contradict their position will gladly settle on “you’re a jerk” as a reason not to accept the other person’s argument. It doesn’t even take actually being a jerk, and sometimes the person doing this is the one who is being the jerk in the discussion.

“If you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.”

Not really a position that deserves a lot of respect.

192

Also, it’s the pit. IT’S THE PIT.

We’re not obligated to be polite here. I’ll be very happy to politely and patiently debate this issue in GD. But complaining people aren’t being polite enough in the freaking pit sounds like nothing more than tone trolling.

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Yeah, its amazing how often people will complain about people being big meanie heads in the Pit.

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That doesn’t seem to be applicable to anything that has happened in this thread. You’re quoting me so I assume this is in response to what I wrote but it isn’t the issue. The guy posting his concerns about toxicity of vaccines didn’t attack anyone in response to their facts, he just walked away feeling attacked himself, and is no longer open to further communication about the subject.

He clearly isn’t a card-carrying anti-vaxer either, just a regular person who made the dire mistake of admitting he had his own theory that perhaps, possibly, some ingredient in some vaccine might actually contribute to illness, if not by itself maybe in combination with some other environmental factor. This is a theory that is heavily examined and researched constantly by medical science because such a remote possibility does exist. Thus far no evidence supports it.

The known facts don’t support his theory but nevertheless, he is entitled to it, it isn’t completely outlandish, and calling him a dimwitted anti-vaxxer for expressing it not only failed to convince him otherwise but serves to reinforce other less rational theories held by others when they read it.

It isn’t the degree of politeness to which I was referring but rather the instant, knee-jerk, nearly militant refusal to even allow discussion about any possibility that there may be some small downside to vaccination in addition to all the benefits.

I understand very well the frustrations that scientific and medical communities face with regard to anti-vaxers, but that has created an atmosphere where they believe discussing any possible downside, even valid questions, will only further fuel the anti-vaxer’s arguments. So instead of addressing them they resort to insult, blanket denial and closure of the conversation. This creates an effect opposite of that desired.

Someone apparently knowledgeable, with a lot of good information about vaccination, is also illogically, irrationally, almost fanatically, refusing outright to even acknowledge such a remote possibility, yet medical science is aware of it and asking the same questions every day. Therefore if they are that irrational in that respect, maybe none of their other information is valid either.

Despite being the Pit no personal insult is intended here. I happen to disagree with this approach of education which, as I said, only serves to make those that disagree with you disagree even more by the end of the conversation.

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Oh for cripes sake. No one – myself included – has EVER said that vaccines do not have any potential risks. Not in this thread or any other. Don’t you dare put words into my mouth. People responded to his stupid questions fairly politely. Chimera, Jackmanii, myself and several others linked to material correcting his misconceptions.

The guy was attacked because he posted some idiotic comments on this subject. Judging by the comments he later wrote here, he’s not an on the fencer. He’s a card carrying anti-vaxer trying to pretend he’s not. Even Jenny McCarthy doesn’t call herself anti-vax. Oh no. She’s pro safer vaccines. Pro greener vaccines. It’s still all the same bullshit. And since this is the pit it’s not going to be treated respectfully because it damned well doesn’t deserve to be. He wasn’t asking valid questions. He was JAQing off and he was mocked for it. Because this is the goddamned pit and we can do that here.

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akrako1 larded his posts with niceties like “Have you not been paying attention?”, “Quite a convenient conclusion”, alluded snidely to a “fact” posted by LavenderBlue (which was indeed factual) and flounced out after saying “Sorry, I knew by the thread name this “discussion” would be even more closed minded than the usual close-mindedness on the SD about anything that can’t be proven by the all-mighty double-blind.”

That doesn’t sound to me like an open-minded Asker of Questions, but someone who was wiling to go on the attack without listening. Which is fine - it is the Pit after all. But let’s not pretend that Pro-Vax Meanies drove away another potential convert.

Oh please. His memes (i.e. the “toxin gambit” and the List of Doctors Who Agree With Me) came straight out of the classical antivax playbook. That’s a lot different from raising a specific issue with some thought behind it.

What I’ve repeatedly seen in forums that deal with this subject is that you can have a long succession of pro-immunization posters who present facts in a calm and civil manner, yet inevitably someone (usually a frustrated antivaxer) will ignore all that evidence while singling out one or two posters whose comments included snark, as evidence that his opponents are all Meanies who are driving away potential converts (this is especially ironic when the complainant has been dishing out insults himself).

akrako1 and others like him have had and will continue to have plenty of opportunity here to learn the difference between solid evidence and endlessly parroted antivax misinformation. If people who are quick with an insult can’t handle the comebacks, they should avoid message boards and comments sections altogether.

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Anti-vaxxers (cranks generally, really) don’t give a fuck about respect. It’s just something they fall back on as a shield to protect their egos and give them an excuse to flounce off when they’re getting their asses kicked.

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You can accuse me of being intolerant of things that should not be tolerated, and I’m okay with that.

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Well the way I read it none of that started until after he was beaten back and forth like a ping pong ball for expressing a simple theory. It seems like he was responding to people demanding hard scientific evidence to back up his theory, which he admitted was only a theory, or hunch, or whatever phrase he used.

Once faced with a google search box and a dream of finding such evidence naturally he is going to find hundreds of BS woo doctors all too willing to feed his concerns with pseudoscientific crap. That said, in reading back further I see he began with a link to such a site… so maybe you and Lavender are just better at weeding out concern trolls.

Even so, I’m not only commenting about how this one poster responds but also everyone who will find these threads with google searches about all kinds of loosely related topics, even years from now. Some may have a justifiable concern but realize that if they raise it here they will be mocked and insulted. As they say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and the woo doctors provide an endless flow of sweet honey to feed fear and skepticism. It would be nice for the side that has real data to also be the most approachable and least judgmental.

Yes it’s the Pit after all, I know but the thread was started about an idiot. Others may wander into it and not necessarily deserve Pit treatment for their views.

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And I’m okay that you’re okay. :slight_smile:

Just remember on a board all about fighting ignorance you may be sending someone off to a place where they are better tolerated and continue to get misinformation.

You can’t demand altruism of anyone. Apart from the bigger effect on the world at large, the vaccine decision really boils down to what’s in it for me. It is simple enough to present the case that they are making a very, very good bet for themselves and their families. To take the argument further, e.g. that they should be wiling to take one for the team, is a sure way to turn off our often greedy primate brains. Some of us get a reward from altruism (thus it isn’t really true altruism) and some don’t.

If everyone gave away everything we own except just what we absolutely need to survive to fund vaccine programs, research, education, free clinics, we could really make a dent in this thing, couldn’t we? But very few if any of us would ever do that. I don’t see it as much different when someone refuses to let go of a fear on the argument that it would be good for everyone if they did. But the argument that it would be good for them is a sound one by itself.