Anthopic Principle - Ha!

An article in the Los Angeles Times for 24 August describes a river in Spain that is as acidic as the electrolyte in a lead-acid battery and almost totally lacking in oxygen, as teeming with bacterial life. The river flows through an area rich in iron pyrite and the bacteria break the pryrite down into iron oxide and acid using up oxygen in the process. I would give a cite but the story is available only to registered uses. I am one but am having trouble getting access in spite of that (I’m working the problem).

Anyway, the conditions in the river are far from finely tailored for ordinary “life as we know it” and would indicate to me that life adapts to the environment, and in fact also creates one, rather than that the environment is specifically designed for the existence of life.

I’m not surprised.

Ah, but if humans did not exist, there would be nobody to observe this acidic river and its inhabitants and write about it in the L.A. Times. :smiley:

I think you’re overreacting here. It has long been known that bacteria can survive in highly hostile environments, including oxygen-poor ones. Your example merely describes one such hostile environment, and hardly constitutes a case for life other than “as we know it.”

In fact, the organisms in question are still classified as bacteria, and still consume oxygen. These organisms may be unusual, but so what? The ecosphere is filled with unusual creatures, and we still regard them as “life was we know it.”

As others have noted, anaerobic bacteria are common lifeforms and thrive in various high-temperature and oxygen-poor environments. Here is a link to a discussion of bacteria found in deep-earth environments.

Most of my admittedly sparse reading on the subject states that anaerobic bacteria have existed continuously since early in Earth’s history. Thus they are in fact “life as we know it”.

Anyway, for the OP’s interest, more complex, multicellular life forms have also been found in highly hostile environments. Tube worms, anyone?

So?

So, any life in any environment anywhere shows that environment was constructed for the purpose of supporting that life?

It’s true that extremophile bacteria are still “life as we know it” in a fundamental biochemical sense–they use nucleic acids and proteins (albeit some proteins that are used by no other form of life on Earth) and water (although they may live in very salty water, or acidic water, or alkaline water, or hot water, or have some neat biochemical tricks for keeping that water from freezing solid). The point about the so-called “Anthropic Principle”, I think, is that its proponents, when they claim that the Universe is “fine tuned” in its various physical constants to produce little old us, implicitly assume that whales and trees and bacteria are all just byproducts of some kind. In order to have human beings (the pinnacle of creation, naturally), you happen to wind up with a Universe with whales and trees and bacteria. But it may be that, in “fine-tuning” a Universe which produces bacteria, some of those bacteria will inevitably begin to clump together and achieve endosymbiosis and so on and eventually turn into trees and whales and human beings. Maybe we are the byprodcts, and it’s really the Bacterial Principle, not the Anthropic Principle at all.

And maybe it’s not even bacteria. Maybe, in “fine tuning” the Universe to produce stable objects undergoing thermonuclear fusion reactions at their cores–in setting the laws of gravity and the nuclear forces such that those forces can balance out and such objects can exist for extended periods without blasting themselves apart on the one hand or imploding on the other–in making such a Universe, inevitably some of the fusion reactors will produce heavier elements, some of which will wind up in other fusion reactors (often as essentially “useless” contaminants), but some of which will wind up in objects too small to do anything else “useful” (i.e., undergo fusion reactions), and on some of those objects, complex self-replicating chemical reactions will begin to take place. Maybe the “purpose” of the Universe is to make stars and galaxies, and all life is just a waste product of this process.

If the Universe weren’t “fine tuned” to be the way it is–if its physical laws were different–it wouldn’t contain life, at least not life as we know it. It also wouldn’t contain stars, at least not stars as we know them. Or planets (as we know them). Or interstellar dust clouds, comets, the volcanoes of Io, the element rubidium, Martian dust storms, pulsars, snowflakes, quasars, or gamma ray bursters.

In short, the “Anthropic Principle” seems to me to be little more than a fancy way of saying “If the Universe weren’t the way it is, it would be different”.

Now you’re straying from the topic. Remember, at no point did I make the claim that you are now attributing to me.

Besides, you are the one who made the claim that the bacteria in that river do not constitute “life as we know it.” Ergo, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. It is sufficient for others to merely demonstrate that such life forms have long been known, and thus, do not represent some hitherto unknown form of life.

And even if you could, that still would not demonstrate that the river conditions were “life adapts to the environment, and in fact also creates one, rather than that the environment is specifically designed for the existence of life” (to use your exact words). Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, merely identifying an unusual biological habitat does not constitute credible evidence for that claim.

To me the “Anthropic Principle” is a ten cylinder way of restating, “Isn’t God’s Providence wonderful in placing holes in a cat’s skin at the exact place for its eyes to see out.”

Fair enough. By far the vast majority of “life as we know it” uses photosynthesis as an energy source either directly or indirectly. In animals, oxygen and carbon are taken in and combined so as to produce energy. These river life forms don’t depend on photosynthesis and apparently use sulfur to get their energy. Tube worms and other creatures of the deep sea vents seem to also depend upon sulphur and don’t use photosynthesis. Biochemistry is far out my field but it seems to me that if this isn’t quite different from “life as we know it,” it is coming pretty close.

It’s extremely spectacular to find ecosystems that are totally removed from the sun (tube worms, and the bacteria that make them possible), because until we discovered them, we thought that all life was dependant on it. The possibility that life can exist without any input from the sun raises our (admittedly always and still low) hopes at bit of finding life within the solar system, primarily on the moons of Jupiter, which may have both water and volcanic activity.

I think Douglas Adams had a neat insight into the Anthropic arguement:

“… imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in – an interesting hole I find myself in – fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.” – Douglas Adams, speech at Digital Biota 2

I seem to remember strong and weak anthropic arguments being ‘Why, we fit perfectly into the universe, hence the universe was designed for us.’ and the second is ‘Not surprising is it? Of all possible universes we either fit nicely, or don’t exist to comment about it.’

Can I quote you on that?

Actually you would be quoting Dr. Johnson or someone like him. I got the quote from a book by H. Allen Smith in which there was a “Shabby Friar Joke” (i.e. a confusion of cause and effect) chapter.

Thanks. It’ll go in the ‘by someone famous, who can be googled by you as well as by me, via the sdmb’ catagory of my sigs, then. :slight_smile: