But, if she were making what should be an easy decision, but only became tough and frightening due to her unconscious racial bias, then, not so much.
The manager does not make many of the claims that you say she makes. In the article, and in any other articles, I do not see where she says she was cursed out. The police report says that they “cursed” when denied being used the bathroom, but that could be anything from “Ah, shit.” to a profanity laced tirade. You are certainly assuming the latter, but as there were many witnesses who saw the interaction, and they do not make the claim that you make, I think that your assumptions are off, and that is assuming that the police report is accurate on that fact at all.
I’m sorry but this is all too convenient. We live in a racist, white supremacist society that day after day systematically burdens the lives of minorities.
For the most part these continuous thousand cuts stay hidden and under the surface or behind closed doors. But every once in a while an incident happens in front of a camera, just the occasional submarine of racism surfacing to show itself.
And every damn time it’s “well, nobody admitted to racism so you can’t prove that anything racist happened.”
Meanwhile millions of people suffer materially, catastrophically day by day but hey, we can’t do anything because there’s no proof!
What about having a sense of proportion?
Racism is not a crime that must be proven from scratch beyond a reasonable doubt every time. Racism is a basic building block of American society. Is is a basic element of the blood in American veins.
Sure, it used to be worse. It used to be right on the surface. But now that the surface has been scrubbed (mostly) spotless, the rest of the rotting innards are off limits, because there’s no real way to get someone’s heart to admit out loud what’s going on
The police report says they cursed at the manager. I don’t think an ‘aww, shit’ would qualify.
But again: I am NOT claiming that unconscious or even conscious racism was not involved here. It may be exactly what you say. But my point is that before you go after an individual with such accusations, you need to have more evidence than, ‘hey, it’s a racist country’. If she had hurled a racial epithet at them, or had a history of racist talk, or clearly let white customers get away with far more, then you’d have a case. Is there any evidence of that?
Yeah, if the price of preventing the systemic crushing of millions of minorities every day is to occasionally point out when someone is acting in a racially biased way that is causing harm, it’s just not worth it. You may hurt some white people’s feelings.
Crushing token innocents? That’s what’s happening. There are piles of human bodies lined up from the ghetto to your front door, feeding the roots of your lawn and this is what you call the crushing of an innocent? The kind of hyperbole that white people indulge in when they’re called out is amazing. Really, take a close look at what you’re calling the crushing of an innocent and what’s happening in the world around you.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I have no interest in adjusting any single person to be a racist or not a racist. When it comes down to it, everyone is racist. So there’s no point in hinging our societal decisions on making that judgment. I’m interested in something much larger than that.
Your attitude is basically guaranteeing that no progress will be made in fighting the effects of racism in society. Does the multitudes of people being crushed by that bother you at all? Or hey that’s just the way things have to be if we want to make absolutely sure that no white personnel is ever unjustly accused of racism. Because that’s certainly the worst fucking thing that happens to people in our society.
Why not? An “Aww, shit” would absolutely qualify as cursing at the manager. As there were many witnesses nearby, and none of them heard any of this cursing, it really couldn’t have been much more than that, certainly not a “cursing out”, as you put it.
However, that could very well be another part of the unconscious bias she is operating under. Having them say anything negative in response could have been viewed as a hostile action.
Well, she did call the cops on them for doing exactly what she didn’t call the cops on white people for.
I’m actually not seeing where she lost her job. Is that in this article, or a different one? In any case, I’ve seen people fired for far less.
They also don’t give her name. Hard to tar anyone without a name.
No one here is calling her a racist, either, just that she has an unconscious racial bias that affected how she interacted with these two men, and that that is a bias that is more pervasive than some would like to admit.
The worst case of what could happen to her is pretty mild compared to what happens to minorities due to attitudes that this event highlights every day.
It also gets all the apologists for racists to come out of the woodwork to defend treating minorities poorly, as long as it is done in a way that cannot be proven in a court of law.
Not if her story is true and they cursed at her and refused to leave. I have seen people ejected from stores for exactly that kind of behaviour. And I have seen MANY people ejected from coffee shops when they weren’t buying anything but taking up a seat. You don’t hear about it because most people just comply.
Anyway, I don’t know everything that went on there, and neither does anyone else except for the people involved. I don’t know if the two customers were menacing, or if they were perfect gentlemen. I just know that before you a accuse an individual of something that might cost them their job and reputation, you should have some actual evidence.
I also think that this method of combating racism is likely to lead to more racism. We should be fighting racism by focusing on individual rights, not by grouping people into identity groups based on minority status or skin color or gender and pitting them against each other. That will only lead to more division and likely more racism.
You have no evidence that any white person has been identified and branded a racist. You have no evidence that any white person has lost her job or had her life ruined for being branded a racist. But that’s your biggest fear. That’s the one thing you go out of your way to protect.
Meanwhile, the people who live every minute of the day suffering for being involuntarily made members of a mistreated group are perpetuating racism by pointing it out when it happens.
Right, but you also don’t hear about it when it doesn’t happen. This place wasn’t full. There were other people there that hadn’t ordered anything. No one else was being ejected.
And I think that before you call the police on someone, initiating an encounter that could lead to not just damage to, but even the end of, their lives, you should have some actual reason.
If it leads to more racism, that’s the fault of racists doubling down on their racism, not due to unconscious racial biases being brought to attention.
Wasn’t the manager fired? Haven’t her actions been called racist? I’m confused.
In any event, I think my point is clear - it’s NEVER a good idea to assume someone’s guilt based on their membership in any ethnic group. Rather, we should treat individuals fairly and judge them based solely on their actions.
I would think this is a goal everyone who hates racism shares, but apparently not. The fact that this appears to be a controversial stance is disappointing.
:dubious: If they’re really fragile and oversensitive, maybe. I think most of us can tell the difference between “accusations” along the lines of “Are you sure you’re not just reflexively buying into some racial stereotypes here?” and ones along the lines of “You are hateful loathsome racist scum!!!”
Just as black people in a historically and persistently racist society always have to be prepared to encounter manifestations of racism, white people in a historically and persistently racist society always have to be prepared to encounter suspicion that they are influenced by racism.
Being such a sensitive snowflake that encountering any such suspicion immediately plunges you into resentment and enmity does not speak well for your status as a functioning adult.
In another thread, someone made the point that calling someone a racist is such a horrible thing to do, when you should just be pointing out that there are unconscious racial biases in society that need to be addressed.
I made the point that that is exactly what is done, and the opposition insists that they were called racists.
Colbert and Hannity? Same-same? I guess it’s a toss-up who’s more likely to be right! :rolleyes:
ETA: Yes, this is off-topic in a thread about the black so obnoxious he took away college admissions from 19 whites …
… But anyone denying that inane comment was racist is so stupid I wonder how they can even clean their ass after a shit.
All of the available evidence shows these two men being polite.
And yet the police chief of Philadelphia characterized them as rude and combative (and his own officers as polite). When the video evidence contradicted him, he apologized.
So we already have one known, confirmed case of these men being mischaracterized as rude and combative. I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, absent any other evidence, in the case of them vs. manager because of this. Also because the only evidence you have to bolster the manger’s side os the manager’s own words and the fact that a genuine police officer wrote them down.
It’s amazing that you take the side of a person who was fired for having terrible judgement when it comes to running a business (and who remains anonymous) claiming great harm to that person, but the men who were actually arrested, which all objective evidence available shows to have been polite and do-nothing wrong, you choose to dis-favor and dis-believe.
And then, THEN, you are shocked if anyone suggests a racist tone or attitude to your posts.
I won’t call you racist, but I will call you an asshole. Take away the skin color of everyone involved, and you still choose to believe the self-serving manager, because you’re an asshole.
And yet you have no problem with excoriating the two men and lauding the actions of the manager, even tho there is no evidence that they were refusing to leave or rude. You’ve never once considered that she made the call and misrepresented the situation. You’re an asshole.