It’s Park, Neutral, Drive, Reverse, and Levitate.
Of course there is some correlation between being severely mistreated and then committing suicide, and even a cause and effect relationship.
However this may be, there must be another reason gays commit suicide other than social acceptance. In the netherlands, the suicide rate is 8 times higher for gay men than their straight counterparts, and it is almost completely accepted as valid by a supermajority of the people.
It isn’t all bullying folks. I also think it is disingenious to claim it is if good evidence points otherwise. Anyone truly concerned about the gay cause would want to know why, rather than the standard reason for gay suicide: bullying.
I got bullied for a variety of things and in one junior high school I had to fight nearly everyday. The principal of the school even joined in on it in a way–I got a reputation as a marijuana addict because I was in a hick rural school and came from a big city and the same jokes don’t go over as well. I hadn’t even tried pot yet. But one joke and a hundred fights later the principal decides that every day before and after school he was going to search me. I never once thought about suicide, and my experience was pretty bad. Even my parents said my black eyes were my fault. There was no one on my side at all.
I’m not insensitive to gays at all, I am just wondering why it is that gays commit suicide at higher rates in a country where it is accepted.
Any ideas what else is the problem?
Do you have a cite for this statistic? Actual information (as opposed to vague references) is hard to come by. This seems to be one of those cases where some obscure small study keeps getting quoted because it apparently refutes part of something. Chances are, if the study is looked at, the results are at best ambiguous, at least that’s what usually happens in these cases.
For myself, I didn’t get bullied much because I was always the tallest one in the class, and even though I didn’t know how to fight, I guess I was intimidating in some way. And I wasn’t teased about being gay because I took damn good care to make sure that no-one knew (we’re talking 50’s and 60’s here). I didn’t have suicide thoughts because I did my best to pretend it wasn’t true. Nevertheless. If there is anyone reading this who thinks that conditions for gay youth were as good or better then than they are now, then I can only say try living through it and tell me then. As relatively easy as I had it, negative attitudes towards homosexuality pretty much ruined my life, with effects that have I am still experiencing.
I can only imagine how much worse my life would have been if bullying had been layered into everything else.
Roddy
Here are some links that at least mention the studies. One found six times rather than 8 times higher. One of these articles also mentions similar findings in New Zealand, but I don’t know of any further info on that one.
I am sorry you had a ruined life. You sound about 20 years older than me, and though I am sure you have heard this many times, I have always indulged the “happiness comes from within” theory and it has served me well, regardless of my situation. But I am not going to pretend I have lived your life for you. Perhaps my philosophy on happiness wouldn’t have worked if my life were a whole lot different.
http://visitislam.blogspot.com/2010/10/gay-male-committed-suicide-rate-8-times.html
What lovely source material! :rolleyes:
Excellent point. Wish I had noted it.
I think a big part of what can push people to suicide is the feeling of there being no help available…end of your rope, nowhere to turn sort of thing. While suicide hotlines and support groups are out there (and help) it is all too easy to feel there is no one to turn to and that can be particularly insidious and drive people to make an irrevocable choice to kill themselves.
Uh, re. the part I underlined, just your first post in the thread, to which Penderel was replying in the one I quoted, and his reply sounded to me like he just didn’t realize that he separates and joins male and female, gay and straight, without giving it a second thought. In his first post, he was talking about gay=[feminine], straight=[masculine]; in his second one, gay=[feminine if you’re male but masculine if you’re female]; in the first one, gay referred only to males, but in the second lesbians lost their invisibility… this mental mishmash is frequent but that doesn’t mean it’s correct.
While we did have a male truck driver (who I can’t recall being gay or bi) go by a feminine handle, I figured that “miss elizabeth” was likely to be a woman. I was wrong about the straight part, though, but… do you feel more masculine (of all things!) when you date guys, or now that you’re living with one, than when you’re with a woman? I’m female and about 99% straight, but I know people who think that “girls can’t be engineers” and “there’s no girls in the internet”, so by their definition I’m masculine, although personally I think they need to broaden their horizons…
Sorry that it was unclear, I really need to find my sleep again 
gone to heck lately.
It is based on stereotypes which may have a basis in reality but I can say from personal experience that I have met hyper-macho gay men who were built and were anything but feminine (right down to their hirsute, muscle bound demeanor and an inclination to tear your head off for a perceived slight). I have also met more than a few “lipstick lesbians”. Absolute knockouts. Gorgeous women and as feminine as they come.
Of course I have met effeminate gay men and effeminate straight men and butch lesbians and butch straight women.
shrug
There are all sorts out there and while you (general “you”) may find some common traits they are by no means definitive.
You can keep your sympathy (and please don’t put my life in the past tense), although I do appreciate that you understand that you haven’t walked in my shoes.
Your sources are wanting. Only the first one actually references a study, which as far as I can find had to do with Denmark not Holland. The rest, if I may say so, is partisan crap. But what is interesting to me is the different conclusions that folks like you draw, vs. the ones who did the study.
Folks like you: gay men are more likely to commit suicide, which means they have more mental illness, which must be caused by being gay, therefore there is no special reason to be supportive of gay people who have problems because if you do you are just supporting mental illness and suicide risk. Or something like that (I never said you made sense). If you think this is an unfair summary of your position, please provide your own summary. It’s a little hard to figure out what your actual conclusions are.
Here’s the conclusion from the abstract of the actual study that I found at this link:
[QUOTE=Mathy RM, Cochran SD, Olsen J, Mays VM.]
CONCLUSIONS:
Suicide risk appears greatly elevated for men in same-sex partnerships in Denmark. To what extent this is true for similar gay and bisexual men who are not in such relationships is unknown, but these findings call for targeted suicide prevention programs aimed at reducing suicide risk among gay and bisexual men.
[/QUOTE]
In other words: Gay men in committed relationships seem to have a higher risk of suicide. We should do something to help.
Do you see the difference? Note that the study does not confuse correlation with causation, nor do they draw unfounded conclusions about the relationship between being in a same-sex relationship on the one hand and suicide risk on the other. Note also that the study was more narrow than anyone who talks about it bothers to mention, in that it is only about men in committed same sex relationships, and not about gay men in general.
Roddy
Yeah, like Whack-a-Mole I’ve met LOTS of homosexual people who don’t fit the stereotype. I think it’s ofter perpetrated because, unless you see them in a gay bar or with their partner or something, you don’t realize these “straight acting” (hate that term) people are gay. I’m thinking of a guy who I worked with for years, and no one knew he was gay. I knew, because I actually had seen him in a gay bar, and he wasn’t hiding it. It just didn’t come up at work.
I’m not really sure about the answer to this. I think most people who know me would say I’m feminine, but I don’t usually wear makeup, I don’t wear dresses often, I have several “masculine” interests. When I’m with a woman I think in a lot of ways I’m more feminine actually, but not in the stereotypical way. I feel more comfortable as a woman; everything is woman-centered, in a way. Not purposely, but it just happens. When you’re with a man you have to cater to that, and you end up doing “guy stuff” because you’re together as a couple, and you want to give his things a chance. But that’s nice too…
Most of the lesbians I know, and the women I’ve dated, aren’t stereotypically butch. Actually, they are a lot like me; sort of in the middle. Not androgynous, just… a little of both. Pretty, but not in a Playboy way. Of course, there are really femme lesbians, and really butch ones, and that’s fine too. But in my experience, most gay people are really just like everyone else (duh).
Can I hear an AMEN?
I said that as a hypothetical. You have to look for those words like “IF.” When someone says if X is true, then Y must follow, you don’t take issue that X isn’t true. Their argument assumes it to be true.
I never claimed that all persons must be vaccinated or die, or that anyone else did. I said that IF someone said that, then…
It’s common knowledge that David42 is a dipshit.
So I’m not going to cite it.
A “phobia” is an an irrational fear. where are the counterparts such as negrophobe? Its an unfair word and gay activists should drop its use because it makes them look unfair.
Just because some do speak out does not mean there aren’t politicians and social leaders who keep their mouth shut because they do not want to be attacked.
So, he was always attracted to women, but didn’t have any strong objection to sleeping with a guy? Sounds like he’s bisexual to me. Probably still is, if he’d be willing to go back to sleeping with guys if he experienced another drought.
[/QUOTE]
What really gets me is gays think they are somehow qualified to determine the sexuality of all others, as though you have to be certified by the gays or your sexuality is something else. But it is convenient to claim an ex-gay was never gay at all, even though he says he was. In this case, the guy says he was gay and gave his reasons. You are in no position to decide for him whether he was gay or not. I do not need your certification to decide my own sexuality, and neither does anyone else. You have no more business deciding my sexuality than I do yours.
You don’t like it if I claim you’re a straight guy with no morals who can’t pick up a woman. (I’m not.) I take your word for what you say you are. You have no business determining what the sexuality of others is outside of their own claims about themselves.
Part of what you call oppression is really the fact that you are resisted in your efforts to control iussues like this. Disagree, and you are a bigoted homophobe who is cruel to gays. Nonsense. I have been kind to every single gay I have met in my life except the ones who were too rude to me.
So you say. Others have other opinions.
The logic of gay activists is beyond me. theyessentially must think that two wrongs make a right, that since gays have been bullied it is ok for gays to become the bullies. No it isn’t. They aren’t merely standing up to say something. They are doing the same stuff they claim is wrong IF IT’S DONE TO THEM but somehow think it is ok for them to do it to others. You are not entitled to do harm because of harm done to you. I do agree that the people being targeted have been unfair to gays in the past.
I take you at your word that you do not believe two wrongs make a right. But I am not talking about vampires, I am talking about gay activists committing crimes against people in real life. Newt Gingrich for instance was attacked by an activist to “shame” him by throwing glitter on him. If these people are oddballs I am waiting for the mainstream gay activists to denounce them. haven’t heard about that yet.
Also, I asked the drummer in my band and he agreed, so no need for any further cites.
Ummm…my own position is that if gays are committing suicide in higher rates they need more support, not a withdrawal of support. And it wasn’t the “life” part of it I wanted past tense, but the “ruined” part. In other words, I hope it got or is getting better and I do not want to condemn you to a permanently ruined life.
Well it is true that it is somewhat narrow in only studying gay partnerships rather than all gays. But why would caring committed relationships cause or correlate to increased suicide?
I surely did recognize the difference between causation and correlation when I asked if anyone had an explanation as to why this is happening. If I was stuck on causation I wouldn’t have said that.
The proper summary of my position is to assume in this case for the sake of argument that gay in and of itself does not cause suicide but that gay suicide is instead largely caused by bullying. If this is the case then the data is anomalous, and I asked why, what is causing the damage if not gay mental illness or bullying. What else could cause this?
I’m not here on a political agenda. I could argue either side, and I am not trying to insult anyone. I wish to understand this data. If I reject any one person’s answer it isn’t because I want a foregone conclusion–its the reasoning I reject.
In each of the four links you can find the studies by name and what they studied and a conclusion. These are four links, not one. All are legit references.
You’re not helping the argument of others that gay activists aren’t bullies. Sounds like if I disagree with you, you get to insult me.
BULLY.
Claiming I am a dipshit does not need a cite because it is opinion you moron, not because it is common knowledge. try to find it in a newspaper or in the people around you.
At least I checked with others and many more than one guy. I never claimed my drummer was an authority.
If you are interested, so far, its up to 12 total and 9 remember the seventies and rising divorce rates.
Someday you might understand the difference.
According to your view, you must be right on everything so there is no need to check.
I’m not gonna go get a cite for rising divorce in the seventies because it is too well known, not because my drummer says so.
Actually, my view is that anyone dumb enough to think “I asked my drummer” is a proper response to a request for a cite deserves to get mocked for it.
This is the point in the argument where 42fish and David42 stare at each other intensely across the table, just before they throw themselves into a deep passionate kiss.
What? They’ve got so much in common! Like…the whole “42” thing…