anti-lawyer idiots

There are quite a few people on this board who never pass up the opportunity to demonstrate their ignorance of the legal system. I won’t name names like Stan Shmenge because there are so many of you. Anyway, I’ve broken them down into a sort of taxonomy. To cut some posters off at the pass, I will freely admit that this is not an ironclad characterization, and that you might be some combination of the dumbs listed below.

1: The “lawyers and judges cause societal ills” morons. Yes, there are cases of frivolous lawsuits, and egregiously improper prosecutions. Yes, lawyers sometimes make a lot of money, maybe more than you. On the other hand, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE BAD LAWYERS is opposed by another lawyer, and there are plenty of lawyers working for the poor and making low pay. People that rant and carry on about how the justice system is horribly broken because of their own confirmation bias and their lack of understanding should get to do without it. I’m sure it would all be better if we just elected some person, usually the ranter, who would just make all decisions. They could make them all ad hoc as well, because it’s all just so simple and everything makes sense until the lawyers get involved. I’m sure we could do without precedent and consistent rules and firm procedural rules, because all of these things just make it harder than it is. Any person with a grade-school education should be able to make these determinations. AmIrite? As far as it goes, instead of having some sort of court system, maybe we should have a government official, who is, say, a plumber or an engineer, decide who is guilty and not, and we wouldn’t even have to pay them much. It’s not as if much is at stake, right? Oh, but look at all these liability issues we have to deal with – if it wasn’t for lawyers we could still have our Jarts. Well hey, guess what? Mommy doesn’t like it when Alpha Tau Douchebag is playing Jarts drunk and chucks one into her kid’s face, who then runs smack into a Pinto and explodes. I see where you are going… ATD is responsible for his actions. Course, without lawyers, he’ll be fine, because his daddy can just hire assassins to take Mommy out.

Realize this: For every case that you think is wrong, there is a lawyer that agrees with you. And hey, maybe sometimes YOU are the wrong one. I know it’s tough, but if you give it a long thought, perhaps it’s not right for you to get sued because you didn’t shovel your walk or left a bear trap in your front yard or let your precious widdle Mr. Snarly the rott loose and he bit someone.

In closing, let me say that yes, there are bad lawyers. And there are good lawyers. And there are middling lawyers. And hey, they all want to make money, because it’s a tough job (see moron number 2 if you disagree), it takes a lot of expensive training, and because they have to eat too. So fuck you if you think that someone makes more than they should for doing whatever it is they do. In my opinion, you’re probably dissatisfied with your own paycheck and have sour grapes, or you make more than you should as well – why the fuck aren’t you donating your time? Cause I know a lot of lawyers who work for fucking peanuts who are skilled, care for their community, and have spent themselves into a hole to get into a position to help people while you are sitting on your ass pulling down 50k typing shit into computers or moving crates or whatever.

2: The pro se morons. Yes, you can get a book and study the relevant law and cases and represent yourself. Unfortunately, you will 99.99% of the time focus on a minor detail that has nothing to do with your case, you will misinterpret issues, you will miss the glaring weaknesses in your case, and/or you will become angry and bitter because the system is working against you, the heroic bucker of trends who knows that you are being railroaded because it’s just so clear that you are right. You need to join up with moron number 4 below and take my class: “How the law doesn’t work, you blithering waste of oxygen”. The reason you suck as your own lawyer is because it’s too hard for people to make rational judgments when its their own ass on the line. The other reason is that you just don’t know what the fuck you are doing, just like if you dropped me into a job rebuilding engines by hand. One NON-reason is the conspiracy to keep you dependent upon lawyers so that we can leach all your money without providing a service. But hey, what do lawyers know, they took the long route, when all they had to do was crack open “How to Appeal Your Death Sentence for Dummies”.

3: The ultraspecific morons. You had a divorce. The ex got the kids. Some judge made you pay more than the statutory recommendation, ignoring the fact that the ex is now dating a doctor. You can’t claim the kids on taxes every year. I imagine it to start with a feeling that you have been wronged. But then it grows. Maybe Judge X should be recalled. Before long, the Judge takes bribes from the other side. Your lawyer is good (maybe) but he is fighting against “the machine”. Your dad rights are being trammeled by the Order of the Protectors of Motherhood. The other side’s lawyer is a rule-breaking bitch set on cutting your balls off for daring to have a Y chromosome. You have been wronged. But it’s not just Judge X! It’s a conspiracy! The whole system is out to get good honest hard working people like you! Maybe Moron number 1 is on to something…

4: The magic words morons. Now, a lot of people fall into this trap. I actually think they are not so much morons, but just out of their depth. They become actual morons when they fail to realize this fact. Everyone knows about tax protesters. Gold fringe on the flag, not giving your social security number, putting your lastname, firstname on documents… these all fail. But there are tons of people, many of who would make fun of tax protesters, that do the same thing. Nerds love fair use. More precisely, they love their idea of fair use, which bears little resemblance to the actual doctrine. Small business owner types try to skirt laws on technicalities that they came up with. People talking about criminal law look up the statute and there it is in black and white. All you have to do is X. An example is the movie “Double Jeopardy”. Everyone knows it’s a stupid premise, yet it’s just so hard to shake the idea that law is easy. In one sentence, here it is:

There are no magic words, and things are well-thought-out.

You see, the justice system is made up of people. Congress writes some things down occasionally, but most of the time they aren’t clear, because being perfectly clear is really really hard for any non-trivial matter. So we have lawyers who interpret the laws. We have a judge who decides which interpretation is better. These aren’t stupid people. If you put your last name comma first name in a document, they still know who you are. If you draw up all these little hypotheticals about when you can kill someone with a tasty poison snack, the court will discern that you aren’t the Dread Pirate Roberts and you were going to build up your resistance to poison, or that they weren’t actually for your kid’s school project. So the courts have a built-in bullshit detector. And given how often these mouthbreathers will post about this shit, one has to wonder if their bullshit detector apparatus might not be working at optimal efficiency.
Basically, every “sneaky law trick” has been tried, by people smarter than you. In the rare instances where it works, the law gets changed fast, or was just political posturing anyway and they don’t give a shit.

The other side to this coin is that the law has been around for a pretty decent chunk of time, and we’ve learned that there are some things we like, and some we don’t. For example, it is illegal to set traps for intruders. There are all kinds of reasons for this, which I won’t go into. But these considerations have been, well, considered, and over the years we’ve kind of figured shit out. Some things we got wrong (Sorry, Mr. Scott). Many we got right (Sorry, Mr. Abusive Cop). But just because, on a few minutes thought, your sense of justice is offended doesn’t mean that the law is stupid. It’s just that maybe you haven’t given it enough thought. Either way, it’s pretty rare that the law is going to be completely inane and off base. The conflicts in the law show up where reasonable people can disagree. And they do. But that doesn’t make it stupid. Move on.

So to all of you morons, please stop and ask yourself where, without lawyers, we would get things like the Constitution or Miranda rights, or the ability to know what is legal and illegal before you get sued, or contracts that are upheld, or even the right to speak up against your own taxonomy of morons, be they lawyers or judges or presidents or even that big scary guy down the block with a gun collection, a rebel flag, and a nasty glint in his eye that appears any time you talk about equal rights.

TL;DR.

I read it, and right on, Mr. Man. I work for lawyers, have seen some pretty rotten shit, but it’s still the best system around.

Hear hear!

And BTW idiots, you are not the first one to think of the “lawyers are liars” joke. Was’nt funny the first or the next 700 million times!

Lawyer jokes are always funny. Who do you think comes up with them, anyway? Accountants?

Lawyers need a good sense of humor, what with all the society-destroying they do.

:wink:

I agree totally.

I think one of the greatest things about this country (and some others) is that one is not only allowed, but actually encouraged, to hire a professional warrior to fight against the government itself.

And if you can’t afford to hire one, the government gives you one for free! (Not always a good one, but better than nothing.)

It’s an amazing concept, when you think about it.

Like that law that resulted in a black kid sentenced to jail for, I think, 10 years, just because he got a blow job from his girlfriend when he was 17 and she was 15 (or something close to that) ?

In the end, after a lot of maneuvering, the kid did get out, but I think he spent two years of his life in jail.

Yes, that law was stupid.

It’s not the only one.

I just found the links:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case

ETA: And after reading the Wikipedia article above, here is another stupid law: “[under Georgia law] until 1998, oral sex even between husband and wife was punishable with up to 20 years in prison”.

Regarding your general rant, I think that the general view of the population about the legal system is that it is a very useful system (like you mention) but, in addition to some flaws, the main issue is that people exploit the rules of the system to their advantage and to the detriment of the common good.

A similar example would be email. It’s a very useful system, albeit with some flaws. However, some people are working within the rules of the system to flood people with spam.

Same with the phone system. It’s also a very useful system, but some people work within the rules of the system to inundate people with telemarketing calls.

People still like the legal system, email, and the phone system. It’s just that they get pissed off at people who work within the system to get to an end result they see as unfair.

And, of course, as more and more people are able to exploit the rules towards unfair results, and more and more adverse uses of the system are seen, then people may start to think how to change the system to minimize people who exploit the rules in such a way.

You know, if lawyers would stop running for public office, they’d have a lot less to answer for. For every good guy doing pro bono criminal defense work, there are 30 idiots who can’t even spell JD in state legislatures distracting people from the budgets they can’t balance by proclaiming it National Pinkeye Day.

Indeed there are some things about lawyers, judges and the law that do not completely suck. But they are outweighed by things that do suck:

  1. Hollywood just had its first murder conviction. The Simpson prosecution was destroyed by 100 years of bad policing and incompetent prosecutors: the civil case showed them how it should be done. Robert Blake. One out of three is a poor record.

  2. Crooked prosecutors. Google the case of Benjamin Field in San Jose. Cut more corners than Jack McCoy. Not disbarred, not fired. http://www.bayareanewsgroup.com/multimedia/mn/news/archive/justice/JUSTICEAugusteN.pdf Enough lawyers practice this way that it makes people who are not well funded incapable of receiving justice.

  3. Kenneth Starr. Took investigation of crooked dealing in a ten year dead land deal and turned it into at least a $50 million windfall for himself and his office while stopping the whole country to prosecute a blow job that took place at least 10 years after the events of the land deal. Attempted to suborned perjury from Susan McDougal and Julie Haitt Steele. Politically motivated judges who appointed Starr never made a peep, neither did any bar association.

  4. United States Supreme Court. Bush v. Gore, a landmark decision so bad that it was chided as useless for precedent in future cases within its own text. Translation to English: what’s good for the goose will not be good for the gander in the future.

  5. The Death Penalty. Despite being handed down to hundreds of innocent victims, and carried out on dozens of innocent victims, the Courts still think it is swell. http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0499/049906.htm and http://www.facesofwrongfulconviction.org/06.04.11_Daily%20Journal_Conference.pdf

  6. Corrupt judges jailing kids for CASH!!! http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/12/national/main4797237.shtml?source=related_story

  7. Non-publication of cases. http://www.nonpublication.com/ 90 percent of all cases are disposed of on appeal by a written decision that the Courts do not allow for citing as precedent, thus allowing Courts to have different standards of justice (quality of writing, actually following previous precedent) depending on their biases that day. This has recently changed in federal courts so that lawyers cannot be punished for merely citing the previously prohibited cases. California and most jurisdictions have no plans to change.

Abuse is rampant in the system and lawyers and the public are mouse like in their efforts to reform.

  1. Citation of all cases must be allowed
  2. Discipline and Punishment for bad lawyers and judges should not be conducted by the same branch of government that they practice before, namely Courts.
  3. Judges should have set terms of office that are non-renewable.
  4. Judges convicted of taking bribes should lose all immunity from all the parties that have ever appeared before them.

These problems are not mere aberrations that occasionally happen. They are systemic and make the justice system fully useless for all but the very rich. (The merely rich can’t afford it either.)

Lawyers are professional warriors who are hired to beat up untrained civilians. That’s how our system works, but you can hardly expect someone who just got the crap kicked out of him to like it.

I know a lawyer who parked his car on the street. As he opened the door, a truck came by and ripped it right off. Guy gets out of his car, pissed as hell.

“Do you know how much this car costs? It’s a fucking Bentley and it’s ruined!”

The guy goes on and on about how his car is messed up and about how he will sue the truck driver into oblivion. A police officer shows up in time to catch some of the rant, shakes his head, and says:

“Jesus Christ! You’re such a materialistic douchebag that you were too busy screaming about your car to notice that your hand is all mangled!”

Guy looks down at his hand, goes white as a sheet, and looks faint.

“Oh my god… OH MY GOD! WHERE THE FUCK IS MY ROLEX?”

:smiley:

Awesome!

Good stuff. The joke, and the rant.

Some of the responses to the OP seem more to reinforce that there are exceptions to exactly what you started this post to fight against.

Most of the lawyers I know are decent people. I try not to paint anyone or any system, or group with too wide of a broad brush, but I do love me a good lawyer joke.

No no-Stan Shmenge is the one who hates COPS.

Sometimes they’re professional warriors hired to protect untrained civilians, and sometimes they’re just educated schmoes who fill in forms and file them in the correct box.

It’s perfectly natural, and probably wholesome, to despise attorneys.

Their job in an adversarial system is to create the most advantageous presentation for their client.

That’s a nice way of saying they are paid to lie if they can, distort if they can’t lie, and spin if they can’t distort.

What is frequently forgotten is that when it’s our presentation we want put forth, we want the best possible distorter we can find.

So yes, we despise attorneys. Until we need one. Then we go looking for the cleverest and most devious bastard we can find.

Stop taking it so personally.

PS: Miranda rights is a horrible idea. It should be mandatory for the newly arrested to make a statement–that’s precisely when the truth is most likely to be found out. Such a statement should be recorded on video to show how it was produced.

As a personal-injury lawyer, what gets me is the “tort reformers” who think we’re simply parasitic on the economy. No, lawyers don’t produce anything you can hold in your hands. Neither do doctors or soldiers or police officers, but no modern society has found a way to get along without them. Lawyers contribute to society. PI lawyers, in particular, get justice for people who need it and can get it nowhere else, and PI lawyers deter reckless and irresponsible conduct just by existing – just like cops deter crime just by maintaining a visible police presence.

Furthermore, few Americans appreciate how far the “tort reform” movement has been set up and bankrolled astroturf-style – not only by industry, which is to be expected, but by the GOP and conservative political organizations for electoral purposes. They figured out a long time ago that PI lawyers were big Dem campaign donors and they took action to starve that flow. See Blocking the Courthouse Door: How the Republican Party and Its Corporate Allies are Taking Away Your Right to Sue, by Stephanie Mencimer.

No, lawyers are professional warriors who are hired to go up against professional warriors, i.e., the other side’s lawyers.

Two lawyers
Two lawyers
Two lawyers, when the naughty case was o’er
Shook hands
Shook hands
Although they’d wrangled
Although they’d wrangled
Although they’d wrangled hard before

CHORUS:
So may we singers
Like the lawyers be
So may we singers
Like the lawyers be
Secure in friendship
And from discord free!
Secure in friendship
And from discord free!

“Zounds!” said the client
Was aghast, was aghast
“Say how can you be friends
Who were such foes just now?!”

[REPEAT CHORUS]

“Fool!” said the one
"We lawyers are like shears
"Who, though full keen,
"Ne’er cut ourselves
"Ne’er cut ourselves
“But what’s between!”

[REPEAT CHORUS]

(works best in four parts)