Anti Semites and the "Jews killed Jesus" argument

Great Debates
1

Please forgive me if this post betrays my near-total ignorance of Christian theology.

Anyway, anti-Semites have a few very common arguments to back up their hatred of Jewish people: they control the media, the banks and blah blah blah. But another claim they often make is “the Jews killed Jesus.”

But, according to Christians, wasn’t dying for our sins the main reason that God sent Jesus to Earth in the first place? Whoever killed him - be it the Romans, Jews, or space aliens - weren’t they just doing “God’s work,” so to speak?

For an anti-semite, especially one who self-identifies as Christian, why should the allegation that Jews killed Jesus count against them?

2

Since this involves an interpretation of religious beliefs, I think it is better suited to Great Debates than GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

3

I am guessing because the Jews’ reason for killing Jesus was not to enable the fulfillment of Jesus dying for our sins.

And remember, Jesus was Jewish.

4

You’re right, but you’re attempting to apply logic to something that has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It’s about hatred of outsiders, and the worst kind of outsider: the kind who is a lot like you but a little different. Don’t trouble them with the details.

5

The term “antisemitism” was coined by those who wished to distance their prejudices against Jews from the völkisch fears and “Christ-killers” allegations of the past. In terms of prejudices against Jews in the here and now it doesn’t deature too strongly. Most prejudices against Jews in the here and now are either motivated by the Middle East conflict and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians or by the non-Christian neo-Nazi movement. Christian “antisemites” do exist, their just not really that important.

I’d also say Christians in generally aren’t too big on Judas and Pontius Pilate even though those two in the Bible were far more important than any others in faciliating the Cruxifixion and hence salvation of mankind.

6

When dealing with such people it’s helpful to remember that they aren’t being rational. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the Sanhedrien (sp?) killed Jesus.

None of them are currently living. Maybe there are some currently living Jews who’s family line goes back that far - maybe. To hold some sort of resentment to any living Jew for something that a member of their family did eons ago is simply ridiculous. Going by that logic, you might as well be anti-everyone since everyone has people who have done ‘bad things’ in their family tree.

That’s like being mad at any random person because her ancient relative ate the apple, cursing mankind.

7

Personally, I always enjoyed the typical ani-Jewish canards.

Not only are we supposed to be all-powerful, all-wealthy, using everyone else as our puppets - but we killed your God! I mean, how awesome is that? :smiley:

8

That someone does God’s work doesn’t mean that they don’t bare the responsibility of those actions. For instance, there are numerous situations in the old testament where God punished the Jews by having them being invaded by a foreign army. Those who invaded them weren’t doing it with the motivation of doing God’s work, but for various other reasons.

Take a somewhat modern example with Jack Ruby’s murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Jack Ruby was essentially doing the right thing and the result probably wouldn’t have been a whole lot different if Oswald had stood trial, but he still bore the responsibility for acting outside the law.

As such, in the case of those who killed Jesus, they still bear the responsibility of killing Jesus. Of course, it works into a lot of fine points about free will and all that stuff in how God allows people to do these sorts of things such that it ultimately works out in the way that he plans, but that’s sort of a different discussion.
Edit: That all said, the anti-semites probably don’t really think about it like that, and want to apply that blame to all Jews rather than the handful of people most directly responsible for it. But I don’t think it’s inherently contradictory to do God’s work and still be behaving sinfully.

9

Hey, give credit where credit is due.

It was Lenny Bruce’s family that did in Jesus.

“Alright, I’ll clear the air once and for all, and confess,” said Bruce…"Yes, we did it. I did it, my family. I found a note in my basement. It said: ‘We killed him, signed, Morty.’ "

10

“And if He comes back, we’re doing it again.”

11

The offical stance of the Church for centuries was an antisemtic interpretation of certain NT passages, helped by Paul’s antisemite passages in his letters. Yes, Paul was Jewish, as was Jesus. That doesn’t matter, because it’s not about logic.

When the Gospels were written, the writers had a lot of conflict with the Pharisees, who argued about what direction Jewish faith should take. After the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the dispersion of the Jews, this was very important. Before, those Jews and Gentiles that believed the Jesus was the Messiah/ Christ were one sect among others, no problem. Afterwards, they threatened Jewish identity (esp. by taking in Gentiles, but not keeping the Laws - see Peters dream in History of the Apostels) and Jewish theology, so arguments got heated, and finally, the Jews kicked the Christians out.

So in order to justify themselves, the writers put retro-activly a lot of anti-Pharisee words into Jesus mouth, to convince everybody that Pharisees were false hypocrites, and they, the Christians, real believers.

And, at first they tried convincing Jews, but then they tried convincing the Romans - slaves and poor, certainly, but also normal citizens. So they tried to shift the blame from “Romans killed our God” to “The Jews did it, which we don’t like, anyway”. This is why Pilate is so reluctant in the Gospels, unlike what historians think.

A few centuries later, the Church has gone from persectued minority to major status, and most Christians have no longer any connection to Jews, they come from Gentiles. So a temporal account of intra-tribal struggle between Jews of different kind is read as permanent indicment of all Jews through all history. And that phrase Jesus says in one of the accounts “My blood will come over you and your children” and the answer of the mob “Let it come” makes it “okay” to persecute Jews, who are still persistent in denying the truth, which threatens the conviction of the group. After all, if there is only one truth, but some people don’t accept it, they either know that what you believe is not the real truth - which can’t be possible, OMG! - or they refuse from malicious obstinance/ because they are devils children.

This basic “logic/ explanation” then gets dusted off every time a group of Jews becomes richer because Christians are forbidden from lending money, leaving only Jews to do the necessary financial stuff that states need and so on.

Theology subjugated to a cause is never very logical. Look at Cecil’s column about how that bit of Noah drunk after the flood was used for centuries as justification for the enslavement of blacks - makes no sense now, because it’s circular and illogic, but was accepted back then. Similar this argument about the Jews.

12

Reminds me of this:

13

The execution of Jesus was a crime. The fact that God was able to use it for good doesn’t change that fact. Anyone who singles out the Jews for responsibility is missing the point. All humans share responsibility due to our sins.

14

Reminds me of an old joke. Reciting from memory here, so forgive me if I get it wrong …

An old Yiddish guy used to sit on the same park bench every morning, next to another old Yiddish guy, and read his Yiddish newspaper.

Over time, he notices that his neighbour never reads the local Yiddish newspaper - he’s always reading the stridently anti-semitic racist ultra-right-wing rag.

One day he confronts his neighbour. “Why are you reading that Jew-hating crap all the time, rather than our good local Yiddish paper?”

The other old guy answers “When I read the Yiddish paper, it always has bad news for the Jews - they are being persecuted everywhere, all over the world. But when I read this other paper, the Jews are all wealthy, powerful, and run everything. I like that news better!” :smiley:

15

Christ was nailed to a cross.

Thor has a giant hammer.

Any questions?

16

My understanding is that, to the degree there’s any logic at all to anti-semitism, the real “sin” the Jews committed was rejecting Jesus as a divine figure. Participating in his execution was just a portion of that rejection, albeit a dramatic portion.

17

In what way? Unethical certainly, but he did break the law and was executed by people who held it to be perfectly legal to execute people.

That’s a silly claim, given that only a minuscule portion of humanity even knew of Jesus at the time much less what his particular god thought was sinful. Nor did the alleged sinfulness of most of humanity have any way to affect whether or not Jesus was executed; therefor it is of no relevance to his execution, much less count as “responsibility” for it. Some guy in a South American tribe 2000+ years ago didn’t affect the Roman policy on capital punishment because he cheated on his wife.

18

Jesus was crucified by the occupation government.

So technically speaking, the ITALIANS killed Jesus!

19

Yes, but I believe ITR was referring to what Christians believe. There’s a Scripture about every sin you commit crucifying Christ anew (Hebrews 6:6). It doesn’t take far from there to assume that every sinner is responsible for Christ’s crucifixion.

In other words, it’s a Spiritual belief, not a material one. Obviously, as an atheist, you reject the Spiritual belief. But the OP is about what Christians believe.

20

I’ll risk an accusation of hijacking:

Was Maimonides, the greatest of all Jewish philosophers and theologians, an anti-semite who committed blood libel?
I ask because Maimonides, while writing from the safety of a Muslim land, stated in black and white that Jesus was a blasphemer who DESERVED to be executed by the Jewish authorities.

No excuses from Maimonides, no “It wasn’t us, it was the Romans!” He stated forthrightly that Jesus was a heretic and the Jewish authorities were RIGHT to kill him.

Is that blood libel on his part?