I strongly agree with Bobotheoptimist that the BSA will never change except from within. There are plenty of local Scouting councils, troops, packs and dens that ignore the national organization’s gay-bashing policy (largely Mormon-driven, according to a Time magazine article I read at the time, FWIW). Our Cub Scout pack doesn’t lift a finger to enforce the anti-gay policy; all are welcome. Scouting’s too good a program to shun, IMHO.
Don’t know how I can say so in a Thrifty way, though…
I have though about this a good deal in the past and have come up with the following thoughts:
I agree that the majority of scouting teaches boys great and important lessons, and can help them become mature responsible adulsts. I’ll also agree that most Troops do not push the National doctrine much at all, so it will rarely have a direct effect.
But,
To me, all these valuable lessons are wasted if they come packaged with a lesson of intolerance and hate. Futher, the lessons themselves could only confuse a boy:
Friendly? Only to those that are straight and believe in god.
Courteous? Only to those that are straight and believe in god.
Kind? Only to those that are straight and believe in god.
Etc.
Finally, no matter how great, I am now embarressed to be associated with an organization with those ideals. Unless you are actively working hard from within to change these policies, your involvement serves only as silent support of them. It is one thing to belong to an organization that encourages religious thought (as it felt when I was a kid), but it is quite another when they begin actively evicting atheists and homosexuals.
And your own pack/troop may welcome anyone at all (like mine did), but how do you feel about the fact that if certain people found out at another level, or a new parent in your pack/troop wanted to complain, that one of your boys could get kicked right out? If you accept an atheist into your troop, how does he pass the requirements for advancement? Does he lie about his religious beliefs? Do you lie when you sign the form? What kind of lesson does that teach the boys?
(my apologies for getting all riled up and hijacking an innocent thread)
isn’t it just my luck that its my turn, and we are on to reverent?
I was a volunteer working with the professional Boy Scout staff when Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale was handed down by the US Supreme Court, and the fit hit the shan.
I watched the local Council professionals trying to deal with the onslaught of bad publicity that came from this case. They met with the TV crews, the local news radio, and both local papers; everyone who was reporting on the Supreme Court case.
One of the arguments they used was that the BSA was fighting this battle on behalf of all the other private groups that want to limit their membership, and if they had lost, no private group would be able to limit their membership; including the KKK excluding blacks and Jews!
I told the Regional Director that I felt linking the BSA and the KKK together was definitely not a position I’d want to defend.
Thats got to be the biggest BS excuse I’ve ever heard of!!!
And you know, that bothers me more - they are actively discriminating, and don’t even have the balls to admit it!
Now, for that matter, I actually agree that, legally, they should be able to exclude whoever the heck they want - but that still doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
Here is a thread I posted asking the same question back when I was finishing my Eagle project. I made rustic looking road signs for the back roads near where I lived in rural northern NY. Many streets are unposted due to cost and just the number that come down due to vandalism and snow ploughs . Most are still there and in fine condition. I’d like to go back and replace those that have been stolen and expand the project to a few other roads that I didn’t have time or resources for back when I first did the project.
A spare sign from the project hangs on my living room wall (the town put up a sign in the time between when I began the project and when I placed the signs).
Former scout here. Great memories. I made second class, went 2 or 3 summers to Camp Tuscazoar, near Dover, Oh. Plus some weekend campouts. Learned lots of good stuff; how to catch, butcher, cook and eat snapping turtle and frog legs, among other things.
It is too bad that the BSA leadership chose to discriminate, but I was a member back in the 40’s and religion was only a very small part of the program. The current attitude seems a poor way to teach wholesome values to a young person.
I was an Explorer Scout later, but I got interested in the Civil Air Patrol and left Scouting for that.
They should, but then they should NOT be accepting money from United Way and other agencies who actively promote non-discrimination. The fact that they DO accept money from United Way and still discriminate is the real issue here.
Unfortunately the problem is that if the did not have that money coming in, the Scouting organization as a whole would probably fold over the next few years. They just would not have the funds to run the organization.
I remember in prep for that final session with the Eagle counsler I was told two things Yes and Fun…
Even though the session may have lasted an hour there where two question embedded in the whole speil. At some point he would ask why you kept on going with scouting. He would keep asking you differently until you finally answered that you had fun. The second question involved a bit of setup. He would ask you to recite the Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God…STOP…“Do you believe in God?” If you answered “no” The meeting was over right then and there. If you didn’t believe in God, you arn’t living by the oath and therefore not a Boy Scout. Before the meeting (in our troop) the Scoutmaster/Troopleader/someone would pull you off to the side and tell you that they don’t care what you do or don’t believe in but when he asks you if you believe in god, you say “yes.”
Yes, I remember that in my Eagle board of review as well. Great lessons they teach boys - they teach them to lie, including lie about who they are and what they believe.
Eagle scout, more palms than a boulevard in LA. (got my Eagle young, class of '88)
Nat’l Jambo 88, 92,96 (staff 92, troop ASM 96)
More NOAC’s than I can shake a stick at (NOAC Staff 92,94)
Campstaff at Manatoc in Akron, Ohio
2 Phillmont treks
Philmont NJLIC
Yea, I spent way too much of my youth in scouts. Didn’t discover Girls really till much later guess :smack:
The only thing I never got to do was International Jamboree. Had a chance to go to Australia but parents couldn’t afford it. Korea wasn’t going to happen the next time it came around…
CalMeacham, Eliphalet…
Yay, other Vigil OA members. What was your Vigil name? Thankfully I didn’t get saddled w/ one of the stupid/funny ones that some people get… mine was “he who looks beyond”
This was after 10 years of catholic school and I think what they where saying is that if you question your beliefs or if you don’t have any or if you don’t believe in god, this isn’t the time to start a discussion about it. Just say yes and move on, especially after all the work you put into scouting. Not that that isn’t telling the kids to lie, but I have to say I understand the point. To this day I remember feeling uncomfortable saying yes to that, but I sure as hell wasn’t going to say no.
This bothers me, too. Being advised to lie was just wrong. If nothing else, I’d have claimed to believe in Apollo or something.
I personally don’t have a problem with the religious aspect. The oaths and such pretty clearly spell out that you are supposed to believe in a god. Joining the scouts isn’t quite like attending a church youth group, as you did not have to be Christian, or believe in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God, but you were supposed to believe in something. Those that created scouting clearly thought a belief in a god was an important part of building a man’s character. In my area it was emphasized less than in being, say, helpful or trustworthy, but it was given at least lip service. IIRC, most adults seemed to feel scouting had something to offer every boy, so the were always inclusive, and no one was forced to attend an eucumenical service at a camp, but the services were always there for things like the jamboree.
So, scouting is a quasi-religious organization. The real problem is that there is no non-religious equivavlent, or at least, I don’t know of one. Why not start one? It seems to me it might take off, especially with a group of Eagle scouts leading it.
Had a whole reply typed out and lost it to MS’s stupid pop-up blocker, but here goes again…
I think that the reason that the BSA is so paranoid regarding gays stems back to the late 80’s early 90’s paranoia regardig exposure to molestaiton. If you remember, it seemed like the national organization was getting hit weekly from some kind of multi-million dollar settlement from some remote jerk. That’s what was driving the repeated training w/ “two deep” and all the other stuff. Since so many of the cases tended to be male- on -male assualt, it was easier to just paint witha large brush and say “if you’re gay, you’re out.” In light of the fact that they almost went bankrupt over these cases, it’s understandable (if not agreeable) to this stance. Basically they backed themselves into this postion as a matter of survival.
There also seemed to be a lot of media preassure whenever a homosexual individual was connected w/ the boy scouts, the media back then made sure it was included in a story. If a molester was caught, even if the victim was not a scout, it was “such and such, a boy scout leader.” Some times I found it funny, espcially when the connections were tennuous like being a troop committee member (which has little or no contact w/ the kids).
This bad PR did not seem to be as much of a problem for the Girl scouts, which I understand from a freind who works in the Girl scout organization have a don’t ask don’t tell policy. It’s also very telling that the Girl scouts are larger than the Boy Scouts in terms of funding, accoring to Forbe’s list of charities.
The second side of this is that over the last 20 years, the leverage that the LDS church has in the naitonal organization has grown very significantly in terms of memebership and monetary contributiuon. I do not have a cite for this, but it has been explained to me that the boy scouts are a quasi offical youth program for the LDS. With the numbers leverage I think that we are seeing some of those opinions come through the national staff.
I woudl find it interesting (in another thread) to talk about the difference in how the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts have handled these issues, as well as general changes in society that seems to have reduced youth’s interest in joining these types of organizations.
Joey, Religion was not mentioned at my board of review. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a board asking a scout anything more than their relationship with a religious organization only when their project was related to the church.
Really, asking a young adult if they believe in God and having it be Go/No Go based entirely on that would exclude LOTS of confused teenagers. I’ve talked to LOTS of scouts from LOTS of places and heard the “If you say you’re an athiest you’re out”
Maybe it varies from council to council, but here all that was discussed in detail was the project and the lessons learned from scouting.
Are the requirements way, way different now than when I was a kid, or did I just grow up?
I remember that the only kids who made Eagle when I was growing up were really amazing - dedicated, driven, different guys. Eagle was usually acheived around 18 years old, I think.
Now, I have to deal with scouts doing their Eagle projects, and I dread it. Usually 15 years old or so. Mostly, their parents do the work - we even brought one guy back because he screwed up so badly, and he wandered off listening to his iPod while we were trying to reteach him the job.
One of the guys was autistic - absolutely incapable of doing the work. His sister and mother held his hand through the whole project, and did just about all the work themselves. (He could occasionally carry something without supervision)
Does being an Eagle scout even MEAN anything anymore? To tell the truth, I get better results working with a bunch of 5th graders…
I’d say, “beats me - I’m old”, but I witnessed an Eagle scout project this summer. The scouts were rehabilitating the benches and tables along a trail I use frequently. They were there fairly early in the morning, and working with relatively little adult supervision. I think there were two adults. They were showing one group of scouts how to properly fix a cement bench, and one of them must have driven the cement mixer on a nearby road, but otherwise the scouts were working on their own. I also know the parents of a guy who got his Eagle just a few years back. There is no way the kid didn’t get it on his own. Dad was an Army guy who takes self-reliance pretty seriously. Those scouts were building snow caves and learing winter survival in the Rockies at a pretty young age.
And, I have to admit the largest collection of dopers (in the weed sense) I knew in HS were the Eagle scouts. I suspect it means as much as in the seventies. Where do you live?
I got my eagle award in the early 1970s, and they weren’t really common, I’ll admit. But nobody who got them was as old as 18. Heck, I didn’t turn 18 until I’d been in college for a few months. I got my eagle rank at 15 or 16. It was a lot of work, all the same.
