BSA leaders / Scout parents / Eagle Scouts: am I totally off base WRT my troop's Eagle expectations?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ve been a Boy Scout Assistant Scoutmaster for a couple of years now. However, when I joined it was only a few years after the troop had been formed so we didn’t have any older patrols established. Thus we have our first batch of Eagle candidates approaching their Eagle project now.

I’m having a real issue with how the troop is handling these older boys. The attitude (on part of the leaders) seems to be “get them through as easily and quickly as possible.” One boy has proposed building some sort of feeding trough or manger for the local high school for the occasions that they host FAA horse shows (I guess? It actually happens rarely enough that no current students remember the last time the FAA did anything there). I feel that’s a total waste of time, energy, and labor, but it technically fits the requirements so the committee has signed off on it.

What bothers me, though, is that the boy who’s doing the project thinks the whole thing will take “less than a day” to complete. Less, if he gets some help. The wife of the scoutmaster just sent out a text saying he has the materials and is ready to devote a Saturday to “get this thing finished” even though, other than the paperwork, he hasn’t yet started. I don’t know how he got the materials to build it because he hasn’t said anything about going around and soliciting donations. I assume, based on how well I know him, that his dad drove to Home Depot with a list and came back with a pickup full of lumber.

Another boy has proposed to paint a set of stage doors in a large outdoor amphitheater here in town. Granted, it would benefit the community but really, how long would it take to slap a coat of paint of a set of doors the size of your standard single car garage door? From start to finish one kid could do it in an afternoon. Put a team of boys together and he could have it done in an hour at most. One leader mentioned that this doesn’t sound like it’s in the “spirit” of the Eagle Scout project, but there’s been no move to actually get the boy to change direction.

Stepping back, I’m frustrated because all of this seems to fly in the face of what the Eagle Scout project is all about: leadership, team building, time management, organization. I’ve made some noise in the committee about how these projects don’t seem to go far enough or fit the spirit of the Eagle project, but I’m just met with blank stares or rolled eyes.

Since this is my first foray into this level of BSA leadership, am I totally off my rocker? Is this SOP? I know that some boys have earned Eagle that really should have gone to their dads, but I thought that was the exception. This approach seems less like “dad will do the work” and more like “nobody needs to do the work.” I’m told council has to sign off on the project (and they do the Eagle Board of Review) but after all is said and done, would they deny Eagle to a kid who made some sort of effort and had all the paperwork from a complacent committee in order?

So I guess my question is, is this normal? Assuming that a 16-17 year old boy is not the most organized or driven type of person in the world, corners are (significantly) cut to make sure he attains Eagle rank? What do other scout leaders / parents of scouts / Eagle Scouts themselves here think? Am I blowing this out of proportion?

2

The last Eagle project I saw was a proposal to build a labyrinth. I personally didn’t think it was all that special, but it came with a very detailed proposal that included examples of other labyrinths, lots of measurements, renderings of how it would look when completed, materials sourcing, estimated costs, sources of fundraising, etc., etc.

Maybe at this point, for making Eagle Scout, planning the work counts more than working the plan.

3

It may help the discussion if you could provide examples of projects that would meet your expectations. I mean, I agree that the two projects you mentioned don’t seem that impressive. But not having any knowledge of this kind of thing, I don’t know how off the mark they are.

4

Many Eagle projects involve beautification of local parks, trails, and the like. The actual requirements are very vague, which is why, I suppose, some of these “only spent half a day doing the whole thing” projects get approved. While the Eagle project rules are pretty lengthy, most have to do with filling out the paerwork and making sure all of the scout’s previous work is in order. The meat of it is this:

For the project itself, the Eagle candidate must direct two people minimum inn helping him. That’s the other main requirement.

To me, rebuilding some school bleachers, or fixing up a park playground, rebuilding a hiking trail, organizing a blood drive, or emceeing a litter collection day would be better projects. Boy Scouts are required to put in several dozen hours of community service, while performing leadership duties, while they progress through the ranks so slapping a coat of paint on a pair park doors or similar service is something that they’ve likely done before.

To me, calling half a day of community service an Eagle project is a bit of a cop-out and is, frankly, failing the kids a bit.

But maybe it’s just me. So i’m curious what others think.

5

I know of a number of projects done here in our area that involved making improvements to our local parks and walking trails - things like building footbridges and installing/improving picnic areas. Those seem like a lot more work and planning than what you are describing.

I also found this site that describes a lot of Eagle projects, and that’s in line with the sorts of things I’ve seen done in this area.

6

The projects you describe do not seem to be “in the spirit” of the Eagle Scout project. My brother’s project was removing and replacing the old worn out park signs at a local historic gold mine. He and the boys working under him made, painted and installed the signs. It took a lot of planning. He had to get permits and found someone to donate the materials. It took months of planning and then a couple of weekends to actually make and install the signs.

I work for a wildlife rescue and over last summer an Eagle scout candidate proposed to do a project for us. He built a platform outside the back of our building that is the same level as our entrance where we could place a large walk-in refrigerator for storing animal food and supplies. This project included laying cement, and as well as making sure it would hold the weight of our refrigerator. He also had to make sure everything was up to code.

To me, these are the types of things and Eagle Scout project should be. They should be hard and they should take a lot of planning and leadership. That is the point.

7

My background is that of a BSA leader for over 15 years. I’m also an Eagle Scout, as is my son. I’ve also served on numerous Eagle Boards of Review.

Lancia, you’ve quoted the guidance to Unit, District, and Council reviewers in your second post above, which comes from the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, No. 512-927. Incidentally, you can find it here.

Other pertinent guidance in the workbook, under the section entitled “Choosing a Project”:

From the section entitled “Restrictions and Other Considerations”:

The bullet point about no minimum required hours for a project sometimes cause issues, and seems to be at the heart of the OP’s problem. First off, realize that the restriction was put into place because overzealous units, districts, and even councils used to sometimes require projects in the past that were just ridiculous in scope.

As stated previously in the guidance quoted above, the key thing now is that “Eagle Scout service projects must be evaluated primarily on impact—the extent of benefit to the religious institution, school, or community, and on the leadership provided by the candidate.”

A very small project, such as painting a set of stage doors does not give an Eagle candidate much of a chance to demonstrate leadership on the project. However, projects have a way of growing in scope. Does the existing paint need to be removed? Do minor repairs need to be made (e.g. wood putty). Should the doors be primed first? With respect to the project impact, is the condition of the doors currently a real eyesore, and getting them painted would present a real benefit to the beneficiary? In short, I could see this being a valid Eagle project, but if the answers to some of these questions are “no,” I might caution the Scout.

I also always tell Eagle candidates that people are going to ask them for the rest of their lives (possibly including at college interviews, internship interviews, and job interviews) what they did for their Eagle project, so it would be in their best interest to pick a good project.

8

Painting a large door sounds like something I would have done to make Eagle Scout if I wasn’t already too lazy to go above above Life. Of course I was also in a troop that was too large for it’s own good (60 - 70 scouts in a major city) so pretty much everything was rubber stamped to hell and back.

9

I was in an LDS church sponsored troop and the eagle projects were all jokes. None had any leadership involved.

They were just really eager to get more boys to achieve eagle so anything was approved. One boy two years older than me did something for a couple of hours and was approved.

My project was actually pretty cool, but the scoutmaster did all the contact work, the planning and the logistics. I literally did no more than any of the other boys who were helping out.

It’s unfortunate because it could have been a very valuable lesson. It really cheapened the experience. I had no idea how it was supposed to have been done right.

Scoutmasters in LDS troops often have no experience and are not aware of what needs to be done. We only had one scoutmaster who had been an Eagle Scout and had come from a troop with really good traditions.

Unfortunately he wasn’t able to change the culture.

Is it possible to bring in other people to talk to the council? Maybe they would listen to others.

It’s a tough position to be in. Best of luck.

10

First and foremost, the Eagle project is a way for the prospective Eagle Scout to demonstrate leadership. In workplace terms, it’s an exercise in what we’d call project management. As such, the Life Scout is supposed to basically think it up, propose it/pitch it(both to leadership, the community and his fellow Scouts who will be his grunt labor), marshal resources (get donations, get other Scouts and adults to help), plan the thing (both physically if need be, or get someone qualified to design it, and plan the execution), and execute it (oversee the actual implementation), all the while negotiating and overcoming whatever obstacles there are to getting it done. And to top it all off, the project is expected to be of some sort of public service value- done for a school, old folks’ home, park, community center, etc…

The point isn’t to do something of a specified size and scope- some smaller projects might be less intensive in terms of actual labor or the physical size of the project, but may be very difficult in terms of the actual leadership and coordination required. Similarly, lame shit like painting a poolhouse/community center is a lot of work, but it’s not particularly hard in terms of arranging Scouts, paint, or stuff like scrapers or putty knives, and if it’s done in the offseason, the community coordination is trivial. (an actual project of one guy in our troop).

There isn’t a hard and fast standard for these things. Keep in mind that prospective Eagle Scouts may be as young as 14-15, or as old as 17. What the best 14-15 year olds will be able to pull off may not quite compare to a kid who’s 17.5 years old, and that’s ok. And you have to account for differences in individual Scouts as well- a kid who’s older, intelligent, and something of a natural leader might be held to a higher standard than a kid who’s younger, kind of slow, and not terribly social.

When I was in Scouts, we had a group of six of us who all lived in the neighborhood and had come up through Scouts from Cub Scouts, and out of the six of us, we split like this: 3 of us were G&T students, 4 of us were highly competitive, and 3 of us were the group leaders. Problem was, that with the way that we overlapped, that left one of us who was neither competitive, particularly smart, or much of a leader. But he was part of the gang, and his project was considerably lamer than the rest of ours. But for him, it was a major stretch, and he did nominally do all the things that you’re supposed to in order to fulfill an Eagle Project, so they gave it to him, so as to not be a dick and say “You suck, and your five friends don’t.” Which was pretty much the case across the board (he was only in our group of friends because his parents and the other guys’ parents were friends), but nobody wanted to be that guy (or parent) to come out and say it outright.

I agree with the OP- it sounds like they’re really throwing them meatballs in terms of the projects and requirements for them. In theory, the project is the defining thing, and should be the most difficult single part of getting Eagle. Our troop tried to keep to that as much as they could- the one guy got something of a pass, but most of us had to do a fairly involved project, at least for a 15 year old.
– so sayeth Bump, 1987 Eagle Scout.

11

Its one of the things that makes Girl Scouts bitter. For a Gold Award to be accepted by council (and its done by Council, not by the troop), it has to be sustainable, provide long term good, your hours need to be documented, your project needs to be documented. Council here said a few years ago that the average time spent on a Gold project was 120 hours. Specifically called out as not acceptable are the “building a park bench” projects. Boy Scout Eagle awards are a joke.

12

Former Scoutmaster and Unit Commissioner here.
I agree that many Eagle projects are just to check off the box anymore. That being said, the projects you point out could be good projects depending on the prework. Take the door painting example. Is the Scout going to work in the community to get the paint donated, pizza to feed everyone, etc.? Is he going to organize the Scouts to get a work party together? Are the leaders/parents going to teach him to organize the project rather than do that for him?

13

My son’s Eagle project included over 400 hours worked by over 20 different workers. He restored and painted the exterior of a historic home that was built in the early 18th-century, and which hadn’t been painted in 20 years or so. He had to give multiple presentations and get multiple approval from numerous boards and commissions.

The new Eagle Scout I just mentored worked on his project for over a year. The final tally was 575 total hours worked by 40 workers, and incredibly, he raised over $10,000 for his project, which was a professional-grade permanently installed StoryWalk pathway and garden installed for the local library in a public park.

I’ve already linked to the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook that is required to be used. The documentation is immense, including a tally of every dollar that is raised or donated, and how it is all used. Expenses get broken down into materials used and incorporated into the project, supplies (i.e. consumables), and tools and equipment. Any money left over is required to be donated to the beneficiary.

Speaking of park benches, we did have an Eagle Scout candidate build picnic tables for the state Department of Energy & Environmental Protection a few years ago. He built 25 replacement picnic tables for state parks from scratch (using felled trees that had been seasoned). It took 10-15 workers six weekends to build them all.

Not to mention the fact that completing the Eagle Scout Service Project is just one requirement out of many that are required to make Eagle Scout. When the requirements are complete, the Eagle Scout candidate sits before an Eagle Board of Review (which includes troop representatives as well as a District rep), and which if successfully passed, is then is forwarded to Council and National for final review and sign-off.

It’s a lot of work for a teenager, no matter how you look at it, and calling the Eagle Scout award a joke is simply ignorant. In any event, you can talk about the merits of the Girl Scout Gold Award without putting down the BSA Eagle Scout award.

14

Not a BSA but a Queen Scout from Australia, it seems even here that some leaders want to get as many QS awards as possible. My QS award took three years of dedicated work.

15

Thanks to everyone who replied, especially robby , bump, and Saint Cad.

I’m taking notes and will bring several of these issues up with our committee on Thursday. Strictly speaking, all the Eagle projects that I mentioned fit the criteria, but I’d like to convince the rest of the leadership to push the boys to think a bit bigger. One thing that I’m not sure has happened is this part:

I’ll have to check, but I think a couple of the boys in question are planning on starting their projects before everything has been signed off and authorized. I know one boy has the materials already, which if I’m reading the regs correctly he wasn’t supposed to do before it was approved—and he needs receipts to prove it.

16

I agree- after a little bit of research, it sounds like they have different objectives- the Boy Scout one is about leadership primarily, and not about the actual impact of the project or the amount of actual effort, and the Girl Scout one seems to be more about making an impact in the community through your own efforts, without special emphasis on leading others in completing the project.

17

The guy who was two years older than me came in on a Saturday and polished the trays used for passing the Sacrament (communion) for our Mormon church. It took a couple of hours by himself.

One of the church leaders suggested a project for me, and then assumed that I had done it and didn’t need any further check off. The actual project I “did” involved making wood plaques for a local history museum. They would then put on a brass plate. The scout master was a woodshop teacher at a high school so we went in afterhours and did it.

The stupid thing was that he did all the coordination with the museum, all the planning for the material, made the jigs and such and we just showed up and did the cutting. I never talked to the museum people. We never visited them.

It was a couple of hours of work for the four or five of us, but I did zero leadership. It was my scoutmaster’s project.

I was the young men’s youth leader for the congregation, so I actually did a lot of leadership in other things, just not the project. We planned youth conferences and such.

Unfortunately, I really don’t have that much pride in getting an Eagle, and I think that is because it was too easy. They could very easily have done it differently so that I would have felt more ownership. It was such a waste.

There really weren’t many of the scouts who progressed through the ranks. The LDS church has discontinued scouting now, but all boys were in it before, so there was a much higher percentage of people who didn’t care about it. The leaders were just really happy to have boys who would actually got the merit badges. Out of my initial group of six to eight boys, I was the only one who got Life, let alone Eagle.

For the OP, I hope you can help change the culture. I think it would really make a difference for the kids.

18

I think one of the coolest Eagle projects I ever found in the wild was down in the canyon of The Dismals in Alabama. My ex (Vigil OA, adult leader and Eagle Scout) and I were driving up from New Orleans back to Huntsville to catch a plane home and stopped there completely on a whim, we had no idea WTF the place might be but it was on the road atlas so we figured why not? There was nobody there, no one was taking admission so we just wandered down the trail to try to figure out what the heck the place was all about. We noticed a bunch of the trees had neat little placards, all nicely varnished and hand lettered with the Latin name, common name and description of the tree in question and a notation that the placards were the Eagle project of a young man whose name I don’t recall these thirty some odd years later. I just thought it was a very neat project in a gorgeous place and since The Dismals is a national natural landmark the project was very much in the spirit of the Eagle tradition and a worthy addition to the list. Must have taken a good bit of time, too, those placards had to have been some serious work.

A rubber stamp Eagle project is a sad thing–all surface, no substance. I wonder if the kids who get that sort of meaningless award come to regret they didn’t do more later.

19

The key here is to follow the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, which is required to be used by the Eagle Candidate. There is a place to enter all the costs in there (and much more).

Right, this is a huge no-no and is strictly prohibited. The first section of the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook is the Project Proposal section. This section is required to be signed off by the Unit Leader, Unit Committee, Beneficiary, and the Council or District. Right in the workbook, it states: “Once your proposal has been fully approved and you have finished your project planning, only then may you begin work on your project.”

Our District and Council will disallow a project in which any work whatsoever occurs before it is signed off by the District representative. We know this, because it has happened before.

We caution all of our Eagle Candidates about the Scout from our District who completed much of his project before his proposal was approved. (This was a few years ago.) His project was subsequently rejected, and he had to do another Eagle project from scratch.

With respect to receipts, a Scout does need receipts in order to fill out the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, but generally only for the Scout’s own use (and perhaps his Project Coach). Nobody is normally going to ask the Scout to “prove” anything. A Scout is trustworthy, after all.

20

Why would the FAA visit a high school, and if they did why would the high school need to be prepared (heh) to feed and water their horses? Does the FAA send delegations around the country on horseback?

:confused: