Any Dopers change their view on gay issues?

Great Debates
21

My opinions on gay issues haven’t really changed, but I’m always eager to hear what people have to say (though I’d prefer it if the rhetoric were cut out).

My thoughts on this issue? Allow me to use an example from my daily life.

I have group, co-ed tennis practice every week. It’s in the suburbs, and the rest of the people in my group are pretty much your average suburbanite kids (I don’t want to indulge stereotypes here, but I have seen some of them wear t-shirts with an American flag on one side and one of Bush’s 9/11 quotes on the other [not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that, but I’m not a fan of nationalism. And such clothing is, to me, tacky at best.])

It is very common for them to use words like fag or gay as insults (like when someone misses an easy shot). I tend to ignore this, since, although it is difficult not to see it as homophobic, you don’t really know for sure that that’s what it is. They may well be using the word as an insult with no sexual connotations whatsoever. Therefore, I never comment on it.

However, there was one time when we were told to get into pairs. I don’t really care who my partner is, so whoever asks me first gets it. A girl was the first to ask. Right after her, a boy came over and said he wanted to be my partner. I informed him that she had asked first and that I couldn’t break my promise and that it didn’t really matter anyway. He said, “Oh, I understand. No, you’re not gay. Of course not.” I stared at him for a moment in disbelief at such stupidity (I mean, that didn’t even make sense as an insult*) then said “Such charming words. Do you really think you’re persuading me? Cuz you’re not–you homophobic asshole.”

I don’t like to engage in name-calling and prefer to explain to people why they’re wrong. Unfortunately, I’d had a stressful week and it just sort of came out. I regret it–and always urge others to act accordingly–because this does nothing to help the situation. People who like to simply insult others because of their beliefs are, first of all, selfish and, second of all, are doing a disservice to their cause.

They are selfish because they doing it to feel righteous; it’s about making themselves feel superior, rather than raising awareness of their issue. They are doing a disservice to their cause by alienating potential allies. If you truly believe you’re right, you can explain why you hold that position. By engaging in vitriolic exchanges, you harden the opposition; you solidify their image of you as a villainous traitor. This only serves as a detriment to the situation, you’re doing nothing to help matters.

*Remember in the Simpsons, when Nelson is kissing Lisa and his buddies see him and say “You were kissing a girl? That is so gay!”

22

I’ll try mostly to identify points where my opinion has changed more as a result of the boards than anything, but bear in mind that it’s hard to unravel how the boards have changed me versus other experiences that happened at the same time.

I’m more likely now to take action if I see or hear someone making clearly bigoted statements about gay people. I’m really still only likely to say something if it’s a friend or family member saying something ridiculous about homosexuality, but it’s more than I would have said before.

I’ve learned that there’s as much difference among people who are gay as there are among any people on earth. It’s become much easier now to look at people as people, and not as “gay people,” as if that were some type of slur.

I’ve also learned that I’m never going to be a gay activist. I just feel a whole lot more comfortable in a quasi-fundamentalist Southern Baptist church than at a GLBT conference. While this bothered me for a while, I’ve come to accept it. I’m still for gay marriage, I’m still opposed to discrimination based on sexual orientation, but I don’t think I’ll be seen at a Pride parade.

For a while, I would have stated that admonitions against homosexual acts based on religion were wrong. I no longer believe this. On the contrary, speaking only from the Christian point of view, I have come to believe that the most honest reading of Biblical injunctions against homosexual acts would lead one to believe that such acts do not appear to be sanctioned by God. Simply given this lack of sanctioning combined with Biblical statements promoting the union of a man and a woman in marriage for the purposes of childbearing has led me to believe that if I were a Christian, the position that I would personally consider most honest would be to consider homosexual acts to be sinful. I respect that there is legitimate debate on this issue, but where I waffled on the issue of sinfulness originally, I have come down to one side.

I’ve become disenchanted with gay activism. It seems as if too much of it is asking people to renounce their religious views if their religion believes homosexual acts to be sinful, and I thoroughly reject this idea. I’ve even started to wonder if extending marriage to gay people or including sexual orientation in anti-discrimination clauses would cause a slippery slope where people would be encouraged to reject the idea that homosexual acts are sinful. I still hope that there is no slippery slope effect, but the concern is something that would not have crossed my mind pre-SDMB.

Those are the major points of change that I can identify – in most other areas of thought regarding gay issues, I am not immediately aware of how my views have changed from what they were 2.5 years ago.

23

Mine have changed in that I’m more comfortable discussing gay issues-I’m not afraid anymore of saying that I am 100 percent for gay rights because someone might think that I’M gay.

And I feel a much bigger need to stick up for homosexual rights, because when people talk about homosexuality and rights, I don’t just think of it in the abstract-I think of the people I’ve met here and elsewhere, and it’s not just about some group-it’s about friends of mine, and that hits a little closer to home.

It’s easier to fight for something when you can put a face on it, I guess.

24

100% exactly the same as Guinastasia here.

Although I have to say that being in favor of gay rights, amongst the Latino community is tough.

25

Well my response is in many ways like what wolfstu wrote about.

When I first started reading these boards, I was just out of high school. In fact, it was the summer right after I had graduated. Back then I had no opinion on gay people. I figured at best, it was no business of mine. I didn’t care either way, just as long as I wasn’t, great.

Considering where I went to school and whom I hung out with, this was a very enlightened viewpoint. My school had a high proportion of very strict Christians, including my “best” friend. I say that, as I really never connected with anybody in my school, I just had people I spent time with so that I wouldn’t look like a total loser.

At any rate, we had a total of one openly gay guy. His treatment by his fellow students was horrible. He was vilified by many of his peers, and I can’t imagine that his school years were all that easy for him. I never knew him, but I held no ill will towards him.

Anyway, I hit university, and surprise, I started to click. I made friends, became more comfortable with my self. I lost a hundred pounds, and I came out of my shell. In high school, I was overweight, horribly shy, and baby faced. I wasn’t bothered much, simply by the sheer fact I managed to blend in with the background. I didn’t have low self-esteem. That would imply the possession of self-esteem to begin with.

Once my self-esteem began to rise, and I began to figure out who I was, if you will forgive the cliché, I came to a realization. It was while reading a thread (Ask the closeted bisexual guy!) by Chef Troy, that I realized that I might be bisexual. I tried this skin on, and it felt pretty good, like things were finally, almost right. But things still kind of itched around the edges, and something still seemed off, just a little bit. It came to me one night, while attending a live performance of the “Vagina Monologues” with some close friends. I figured out that, hey, I like women, but as friends. I have no interest in having sex with them. My reaction to this was a big huh. It no longer seemed to be such a huge deal. Compare this to high school, when, one day, I had a brief though of “what if I’m gay?” Needless to say, this had somehow gotten through the defences that I had set up at this time, and I nearly had a panic attack.

This shift in attitude I attribute to the SDMB. Not the being gay part, just being able to accept who I am. Up until these boards, I had never interacted with a gay person before, but not only, I had never even discussed it in a calm and rational matter. To my upbringing, it had always been this bad thing that happened to other people. I now realize, that, it is not bad, nor is it good, it just is, and as such it is nothing to be ashamed of. Had I come out during high school, or at least had come to the realization that I was gay, I wouldn’t have made it out alive. My mental state at the time was shaky enough as it was. With that added pressure in such a non-supportive atmosphere, I don’t think I could have held up.

So to summarize a long, rambling story, the SDMB has changed my viewpoint on gay issues, and in a manner that I feel was exceptional worthwhile for my own personal and mental health. That isn’t to say I never would have come out of the closet if it were not for the dope, but it provided that atmosphere that was lacking around me in order for me to come to certain realizations.

26

Lissener said, "
quote:

Originally posted by Kalhoun
Poor Lissener! . . .

What the hell is this about? Why don’t you take it to the pit, instead of this drive-by shit where you’re safe from responses?"

I was being sympathetic, asshole. If you’d read the pit thread and all the other threads you’ve been involved with, you’d know that I didn’t think you deserved a pit thread. Maybe you need to take a pill, dude.

27

Sorry Kalhoun; being pitted–even when it ends up largely in my favor–left me feeling thinskinned.

28

's alright. Shit (and pit) happens.

29

Without going into detailed responses, I’d just like to say that wolfstu’s and Emperor Penguin’s posts have really made my millenium.

And all the rest who’ve been enlightened while spending time here; this is very encouraging to me. I don’t feel so much, today, like I’m shouting down a well. (Not to take any credit whatsoever myself; just to know that the thing I’m shouting into turns out not to be a bottomless well after all.)

30

My attitude towards homosexuality has not changed.

I’m for it.

:wink:

And wolfstu and Emperor Penguin - WOW. Just WOW. I’m proud of you both.

Esprix

31

I take it as a compliment when someone incorrectly suspects personal bias.

32

:o * Blushes *

THE Gay Guy is proud of me. I… I… I’m speechless. :slight_smile:

Thanks, Esprix. By the way, ATGG helped a lot, though I must admit I was only able to get through part 1. (See, early on I didn’t read them at all, because that might be adimitting that I might be maybe gay. And by the end, school and things were keeping me from spending the time needed to go through them.)

The SDMB: Changing lives, one post at a time.

33

My views haven’t changed – per se. But what I got the most out of the interaction with SDMB gay people is individuality – that you’re distinct individuals with differing views and beliefs (which I "knew’ but didn’t know in a visceral way before SDMB) – and the greater awareness of the impact of public policy on your lives.

34

Why, thank you. I have to say thatyou are one of my favorite posters, and that is indeed high honours coming from you. :cool:

I have to admit that the Gay Guy threads are an invaluable source of information, and I thank you for the effort that you have put into them.

35

I haVe a question, WOLFSTU – Are you gay? :wink:

I’ve always been pretty open-minded about homosexuality in theory, in the “none o’my bidness” sense, but I’ve certainly had more interaction with more gay people, and more discussion of gay issues, here on the Boards than IRL. So I guess it’s changed my perspective in that I’m more aware of how important these issues are to a lot of people, and I’m less able to do the whole “out of sight, out of mind” thing, as if because it’s not important to me personally, it’s not important. (Which was never intentionally my attitude, but I think is sort of where we tend end up about stuff that doesn’t really impact us personally.)

The other thing I’ve learned from the Boards about sex – and this is not limited to gay people – is that some people are into some weird, weird shit. And while my attitude in that regard remains “none o’my bidness” as long as you don’t scare the horses, I have discovered that keeping an open mind doesn’t mean I won’t be icked out. But if the SDMB doesn’t teach you that there’s all kinds in the world, man, nothing will.

36

I have found the SDMB to be rather inhospitable to any viewpoint not in line with the “gay rights” position. I believe that gay people shouldn’t be discriminated against, but I disagree with other posters as to what constitutes discrimination. I don’t think that we should be offering special status to opposite sex couples, and not to same sex couples, but I don’t think that it is discrimination. For that I’m accused of being pedantic, dissembling, and deliberately obtuse. My position that some pedophiles are in fact gay gets twisted into " ‘gay’ and ‘pedophile’ are synonyms".

While I still support gay rights, I now a much less confident that when other people say “gay rights”, they are referring to what I consider gay rights, and I’ve become disabused of the notion that simply because someone is fighting for respect, that that means that they will accord others respect.

37

It’s made me think a bit more.

For example, until fairly recently I wasn’t sure what my opinion was on the whole gay gene thing. Then I saw someone here ask if heterosexuality was genetic or a concious decision. And it just seemed such an obvious point, showing that the whole question was pointless, but one I just hadn’t been able to get to before.

I do like being enlightened.

38

Because, you don’t get it, The Ryan: pedophiles can be gay or straight reguarding their adult relationships, but their attraction to children has little to do with what sex the child is.
They’re attracted to a CHILD. Not a boy, or a girl, but a CHILD.

Actually, I would say that pedophiles are neither gay nor straight, but in a class all by themselves.

39

And pardon me, but if offering concesssions to opposite sex couples and not offering them to same sex couples ain’t discrimination, The Ryan, then what the hell is it?

And what is discrimination, then?

40

I’m happy to see that people who think like The Ryan have “found the SDMB to be rather inhospitable to any viewpoint not in line with the ‘gay rights’ position.” You’ll find most dopers to be even more inhospitable to any viewpoint not in line with the “civil rights for black people” position. So the education continues.

To address a couple other points:

For what it’s worth, I think you’re wrong on both counts. First, when I respond as I do to someone whom I don’t think acknowledges my fully equal humanity, I’m responding as honestly as I know how: I’m not just doing it to feel righteous. Although you’re not wrong to say I do it to make myself feel superior: I respond as I do out of a need to feel superior to the way a lifetime of living among homophobes tends to make one feel; pretty damn inferior.

Second, I believe that I AM raising awareness. Several people in this thread have said that one thing they learned at the Dope was that these issues are seriously important to some people. Though I acknowledge my tone is often somewhat unfriendly, I feel pretty certain that my inflexibility on this issue—on the issue of my humanity, and my insistence that it’s just plain insulting and humiliating to have a bunch of people abstractly ruminating on my value as a human being—has contributed to this newfound awareness in some of you. Insofar as my rants have a “purpose”—beyond just trying to honestly express how I feel about this—I feel like their purpose is to remind people that, dry and abstract an intellectual exercise these debates may be for them, I’m LIVIN here! That they’re not just discussing a hollow concept, but my LIFE, my SELF. I’m not half as interested in learning how to adapt my mien to make more friends as I am in driving home the non-negotiable truth that any adapting to be done will have to be done by them, not by me. That the entire discussion needs to be REFRAMED to make it clear that the real subject of this debate is (universal ==>) YOUR lack of understanding, not MY homosexuality. One of those subjects is open to debate and capable of change; one is not.

Many points to respond to here. The overarching one is that I agree with nearly everything you say, but that it only reinforces my intention to keep reacting honestly in these exchanges and not to adapt my expressions for ease of swallowing.

To bring my “behavior” in line with that of gobear and Esprix, et al., would, I would think, go farther toward presenting a homogenized—if unified—front. Surely you can see that my insistence on reacting honestly rather than “toeing the company line” is a better demonstration of the heterogeneity of the “gay population”? That we are all people first, individuals, with a purely incidental—and equally individual–sexual orientation; that there are thin-skinned assholes among us as well as duck-backed diplomats. Any awareness I hope to raise is simply along those lines: that some of us—not all of us, but some of us—will negotiate as we go; rather we will take these rights as given, and react accordingly to assumptions otherwise.

I’ve said before that I’m content to be the lunatic fringe, here, on this issue. I think it’s important for homophobes to understand that there are those of us who are mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore. I firmly believe that if 100% of all homosexuals were homogeneously deferential and diplomatic, we’d achieve about as much progress in this “movement” as black Americans did before the peak of the Civil Rights movement erupted.

From Nina Simone’s song, “Mississippi Goddam”:
[ul]
. . . . .

Don’t tell me
I tell you
Me and my people just about due
I’ve been there so I know
They keep on saying “Go slow!”
But that’s just the trouble
too slow
Washing the windows
too slow
Picking the cotton
too slow
You’re just plain rotten
too slow
You’re too damn lazy
too slow
The thinking’s crazy
too slow
. . . . .

All I want is equality
for my sister my brother my people and me
Yes you lied to me all these years
You told me to wash and clean my ears
And talk real fine just like a lady
And you’d stop calling me Sister Sadie
Oh but this whole country is full of lies
You all gonna die and die like flies
I don’t trust you any more
You keep on saying “Go slow!”
“Go slow!”
But that’s just the trouble
too slow
Desegregation
too slow
Mass participation
too slow
Reunification
too slow
too slow
Do things gradually
too slow
But bring more tragedy
too slow

. . . . .

You don’t have to live next to me
Just give me my equality

. . . . .[/ul]And no, I don’t literally advocate the “you all gonna die, and die like flies” bit, but I think it’s important for people to know that this issue is every bit as important as it was in the mid-century South.