*but some of us—will not negotiate as we go
I understand what you’re saying, lissener, but I stand by my earlier post.
Your need to assert yourself is obviously difficult to do away with. You have to declare yourself superior to another person if that person is intent on making you feel inferior; you have to oppose their attacks with equal force in order to make your voice heard. The only way to be objective is to detach oneself from society. Perhaps I should have considered other people’s personalities–I was giving my opinion and my perspective on the matter.
Yes, it is important to make people comprehend the consequences of the laws they support (or oppose). But I feel that one should not lose himself in a movement. It can be very comforting to emrace a set of ideas wholeheartedly, to let yourself be carried by something greater. However, to me individuality is paramount. I always do my best to be objective and not identify myself with one cause or another.
Having read some of your earlier statements, I know that you will say that your homosexuality is a part of your personality. Perhaps it is, I don’t know. I never consider my sexuality when analyzing my personality, but then again I don’t have to deal with others defining me by it.
So what we have here is a social construct. You have been oppressed by society and thus feel a need to declare your individuality, an individuality which you conceive to include–to a great extent–the very trait which society abused you about. This is perfectly understandable, but that doesn’t excuse you from recognizing the real forces at work here. (In case you misunderstood my point: I am not calling you a bad person, something that you–as an individual concerned with the welfare of society–might have inferred. To me, it’s important for people introspective and individualistic; I just don’t have the morality–especially the social morality–you seem to possess. And this doesn’t bother me either because it’s all subjective and I am merely commenting on what others do. Of course I haven’t detached myself from other people entirely–that would be impossible. I’m just pointing out that my view differs because I’m more disconnected than other people are.)
Note: Clearly, if I were gay I would have had to face different circumstances. I cannot know whether my views would differ as a result unless I actually experienced the exact situation which I am discussing. Therefore, this is my perspective and mine only. This may, at first glance, seem like a moot point, but I feel that it’s one that is important to remember.
Yes, the SDMB changed my views on gays and gay rights in a number of ways.
I live in an area where being gay is something that is rather unheard of. In high school for instance, there was one out gay guy, and while I never held any ill will towards him, he would make me uncomfortable.
As seems to be a common theme in this thread, I did later on realize that I myself was gay.
It’s really weird, how even after realizing that you are gay, you can have such conflicted emotions about it. I suppose it is just a part of maturing, but one thing that has made me grateful was having a resource like the SDMB where I was able to interact in some form with other people, and have the chance to see other gay people as actual humans, with beliefs, viewpoints, and desires. That was something that was denied to me in the area I grew up in, and having access to a gay community here really helped me in realizing that there is nothing wrong with being gay, that gay people want the same things as everyone else, and that not all gay guys are the stereotypical interior designers with impeccable fashion sense.
It seems odd, when I look at it, that as a gay man myself, I would actually have to learn these things, but I truly did enter realizing that I was gay with an utterly “straight” mentality, and my ignorance about what was going on within myself was utterly mind blowing.
I also have learned a lot about more fundamentalist viewpoints, and have been realizing just how hard it is to convince someone who believes themselves absolutely correct that possibly, just possibly, that their misconceptions are wrong.
It’s been an invaluable resource for me, and I really did learn a lot.
Interesting query. I had a conversation with a relative of mine (Psychologist) and I didn’t get the answer I was fishing for.
My premise was as follows:
-People confuse morality with normalcy.
- Morality is an ever changing and subjective view of behavior.
- “Normal” behavior consists partly of social training and partly of biological encoding.
Unlike other animals, humans are born with very little skills. At Birth we can breathe, suckle and poop. As we age there is a predisposition to breed. To this end I argued that same sex desires were abnormal but no immoral. The purpose of the urge was to create life without the specific DESIRE to create life. In other words, people who created life (because the act felt good) survived by natural selection. The discussion didn’t last long enough to define normalcy as it relates to sexual desires. I wasn’t trying to draw a line in the sand as to what is or is not normal as much as I wanted an explanation of how normal is defined by people in the field of Psychiatry. Without this thought process I find it difficult to formulate any logical argument on the subject.
With that said, I was VERY surprised by the responses of post high school aged individuals who were still confused about their sexuality at that age.
**
The problem is, of course, that the great unwashed will say, “Oh my God, that lissener is a bomb-throwing maniac! I guess I’m not in favour of gay rights after all!”
It’s not so much what you say as how you say it. When you flame friends and foe alike, it’s a complete turn-off for people who agree with you. How do you think it comes across to people who haven’t got a particularly strong opinion?
The civil rights struggle in the '60s in the U.S. offers some interesting lessons. First of all, MLK and friends were smart and savy not only about their message but about how they presented it. What really won the battle for civil rights wasn’t militant posturing, it was the image of big, mean, Southern sherrifs setting dogs loose on little girls holding hands and singing. It was no accident that the movement presented those images to the world, either.
I do not, of course, suggest that you need to go this far. But at the same time, it was MLK’s soft-spoken yet direct message that won the day, not Malcom X’s racial fury.
Calling everyone a racist (or a homophobe) whether they are one or not gets you (and the cause) nowhere. The people who don’t already agree with you will, at best, be hardened in their apathy. The people who do agree with you are likely just to keep quiet rather than attempt to defend the indefensible.
The point here is that your frustation is understandable. Nonetheless, if you can’t moderate your tone, perhaps you ought not to say anything at all. All your invective does is make it that much more difficult for others to do the “educating” you have vowed to forgo.
It was both.
Fine, I don’t care how hardened they are, as long as they’re forced back into their own closets.
All that 's required for evil to triumph . . .
Absolutely not. It makes them a viable alternative. If it weren’t for the lunatic fringe, the moderates would be the radicals. I help delineate the context. Not that that’s my conscious intention; just my justification for expressing myself honestly and refusing to sugarcoat them for the homophobes.
I’m sorry, but you miss the point entirely. My sexuality is inseparable from my self, but it’s still only incidental to who I am.
It’s the homophobes who insists that my sexualiy defines who I am as a person; they identify my selfhood only by my sexuality. This is wrong, and your assumptions about the centrality of sexuality in my own understanding of my selfhood is wrong. It’s as incidental as yours, and should be just as relevant–that is, irrelevant–in the social and political context that the homophobes continue to insist on dragging it into.
This seems to be the most talked-about issue on the SDMB. There’s almost always a couple threads on page one in GD about homosexual issues, and a couple ongoing pittings that originated from a squabble in one of those threads.
For all that, I haven’t really changed any of my opinions. I do occasionally like to toss out a particular facet of an issue to see what people think of it. However, if I want a gay man’s perspective on some issue I generally find it more useful to ask my real-life gay friends, who are a little more mainstream. Here on the Dope, it’s all too likely that somebody from the fringe (on either side of the issue) will pop in, say something outrageous, and spur 5+ pages of heated argument that goes nowhere and isn’t cleared up until 3 Pit threads later.
But I would say that the frequency of discussion on gay issues here does tend to move the issue in from the margins, get people thinking about it more often even if they don’t find any of the discussion to be particularly convincing one way or the other.
The SDMB is almost solely responsible for my change in views about homosexuality. I started out as a liberal-ish Catholic - feeling that homosexuality was wrong, but that gays shouldn’t be persecuted for it (well, no-one should be persecuted). And then I lurked here…
The first thing that had any impact was the lesbian seagulls. Someone posted a link about them, which I followed up. It might seem silly to some, but knowing that perfectly innocent little animals with no human hang-ups were doing this just opened my mind a teeny bit.
So I read as many threads about gay issues as I could. I found that the gays and lesbians of the Straight Dope were people I could respect. Finally I read all of the ‘Ask the Gay Guy’ threads, which answered many questions for me. Gradually my opinion has shifted to the point where I’m proud to say that I’m a supporter of gay rights.
I hope that all the people who’ve taken part in the threads about homosexuality realise that even if the numbskull they’re arguing with persists in their stupidity, there are often lurkers benefiting from the discussion.
The SDMB also played a large part in my switch to atheism, but that’s a story for another day 
This board has contributed to another human being accepting both atheism and homosexuality.
What could be a better endorsement for the loving and accepting route that all human thought should take?
Not on homosexuality, really. The couple I’ve known in my life led me to my beliefs long ago regarding homosexuality.
I disagree with that. If you’re intent on changing society for the better, you should be helping everyone. What good would come of people bottling up their feelings? They’re bound to come out eventually, except then they might well be violent outbursts.
No. Your political stance is your decision. Of course you help delineate the context. And that may help the moderate cause and thus the movement as a whole. But you are responsible for this choice and you did make a conscious decision. Your justification has to come from what you stand for, not what others stand for.
OK, perhaps I was off in my characterization of sexuality, but I still think that everyone chooses their identity (that is, what they make of what they have). To me, this is hardly equivalent to a reason gays not having the same rights as everyone else. They should and, in time (hopefully soon), they will.
Former homophobe here.
Have now been out of the closet to myself for ~3 years.
The SDMB played a big role in getting me to interact with gasp!!! other gay people.
I wanted to go into detail like Emperor Penguin and wolfstu, but unfortunately I’m not OK with it yet and am still in counseling for the damage I did to myself when I was closeted. It’s too difficult to talk about right now, so I’ll have to leave you all with just this.
I’m not gay or against gays… but I sure thought gay marriage issues were silly. Which is consistent since I think marriage per se is silly. The SDMB issues brought about imigration of gay foreign “spouses” thou changed my view on that. Afterall we do have borders and limits against immigrants just staying… so now I beleive gays should be allowed to marry. (and countries to accept that.)
Ya know, you don’t have to be an atheist to be loving and accepting and all that. Some of us have the pull to believe in Something that doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the gender of the person we love but just might care about how we treat said person. Atheism is fine, but not all of us are or even could be atheists.
I can’t say this board has changed my views, but it is a pleasure to interact with straight folks out there besides my immediate family who are as much for gay rights as I am. I guess that goes back to the whole, “You must be gay if you’re for gay rights” idea. Well, I’m about as straight as it’s possible to be, so that’s definitely not true!
Thank you *so *much for being part of the “lunatic fringe.” Moderates have never moved mountains, let alone the entire world.
Though my views on gay issues didn’t need changing, I no longer feel like a solitary voice in the wilderness.
Anyone, anywhere like to comment on my theory that the main cause of the antisocial and hateful attitude called ‘homphobia’ is the fact that ‘gay’ people are forever trappin on about their sexuality, here and elsewhere, when the rest of us could’nt care less.
Do you talk about your spouse to your friends and coworkers? Do you talk about what you and he/she are going to do this weekend when the office conversation turns that way? Do you have pictures of your spouse on your desk? Do you wear a wedding ring? Do you call your spouse at lunch to check in on him/her when he/she is home sick for the day? If you’re a woman, did you take your husband’s surname?
Do you walk with you spouse while shopping or go out for dinner with him/her? Do you kiss him/her (cheek or lips) in public? Do you feel nervous showing mild affection (like holding hands or smiling at each other “that way”) in public?
Do you tell friend and coworkers that you can’t go out for drinks because you have to get home to help your spouse paint the bedroom? Do you ever mention your spouse in conversation?
If you do any of these things, QUIT FLAUNTING YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY!
I don’t know if my change of heart is primarily do to SD or a combination of boards.
What’s changed for me is my perception of the politics of sexuality.
Specifically, for example, I can’t think of a good reason (or, more accurately, I no longer think my reasons were good) for denying homosexuals the right to marry.
Tinker
It’s possible that pedophiles, in general, do not care about the sex of their victims. Whether such a person is bisexual or another category entirely is largely a matter of semantics. It seems odd to say that I “don’t get it” because my choice of nomenclature does not perfectly match yours. But let us assume for the moment, just for the sake of argument, that I “don’t get it”. Now let’s go back to what I said in my previous post:
Are you saying that because I am missing some important subtlety, it is appropriate to misrepresent my position? Or are you saying that as a consequence of the subtlety which I am missing, I am in fact saying that “gay” and “pedophile” are synonyms?
One example of discrimination against homosexuals is, in cases where one parent is gay, favoring the straight parent in custody disputes.
lissener
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you simply did not see, or did not grasp the significance of, the quote marks surrounding the phrase “gay rights”. I am in favor of civil rights for blacks, but I am not entirely in favor of “civil rights” for blacks. The use of the quote marks signifies that the term refers to others’ use, not to its actual meaning. While I understand the hostility towards those that oppose the very idea of rights for gays or blacks, I find it rather intolerant to be hostile to those that disagree as to what those rights are.