[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
John Mayer - further proving that songwriting is only 10% talent, 90% imagination
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[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
So no, I wouldn’t consider John Mayer to be emo, though his songs do suck pretty hard (despite his talent with a guitar).
[/QUOTE]
So John Mayer has 10% talent, I’m hearing that correctly?
Who are you comparing him to out of the modern day blues rock collective? Give me an example of someone who has 90% more talent than John Mayer.
I thought the quintissential emo band was You Will Know us by the Dangling Trail of the Dead or whatever that band with the interminable name is. I might be out of touch with that though…it’s sort of like what grunge was for kids in the mid-90s I think.
Here’s a good overview. It’s the emo song.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
So John Mayer has 10% talent, I’m hearing that correctly?
Who are you comparing him to out of the modern day blues rock collective? Give me an example of someone who has 90% more talent than John Mayer.
[/QUOTE]
Soapbox Monkey was referring to songwriting on the whole, and raw talent’s small importance therein. Let’s not confuse mad guitar skills with good music.
[QUOTE=anu-la1979]
I thought the quintissential emo band was You Will Know us by the Dangling Trail of the Dead or whatever that band with the interminable name is. I might be out of touch with that though…it’s sort of like what grunge was for kids in the mid-90s I think.
[/QUOTE]
Are they considered emo? If I were to aim at quintissential I’d think of The Used or even Hawthorne Heights much sooner. indierock82 we don’t all hate emo. A 40-something coworker asked me what it was and I told her “Emo is for emotional. It’s usually kind of whiny, but strangely compelling.” Yeah, emo’s kind of lame, but I like a lot of bands who fall under the label 
[QUOTE=anu-la1979]
I thought the quintissential emo band was You Will Know us by the Dangling Trail of the Dead or whatever that band with the interminable name is.
[/QUOTE]
They rate high on my emo-meter (no relation to Scientology ) but they don’t have enough of a whiny voice or whiny lyrics to be considered quintessential. The only band I’ve heard that has all of the elements that nearly any subset of people considers “emo” is The Promise Ring - Short melodic hooks, personal lyrics, whiny singing, and at least in their early stuff, an indie rock sound. …AYWKubtToD has a lot of these as well.
(On a scale of 0-12, wussy John Mayer music only rates 3 at best, while even Dashboard Confessional whom many hardcore fans do not consider “real” emo ranks at a 6.)
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
So John Mayer has 10% talent, I’m hearing that correctly?
Who are you comparing him to out of the modern day blues rock collective? Give me an example of someone who has 90% more talent than John Mayer.
[/QUOTE]
Sans Seraph got my point. I acknowledged that what I’ve seen of Mayer playing shows me that he’s a good guitarist. Unfortunately, being a good guitarist doesn’t automatically make you a good songwriter, and John Mayer is not a good songwriter.
Again, who are you comparing him to, say, in the current top 100 of pop rock as far as song writing ability? I’m dying to know who on the Billboard 100 (Mayer’s current peers) are blowing the guy out of the water in the songwriting department. Have you heard all of his songs? I’m not saying that every single song the guy pumps out is pure ear candy, but I’d hardly call him a terrible songwriter, not by today’s standards anyway.
And you’re wrong about him being a good guitarist. He is as close to SRV as our current generation is going to get. And this is after comparing him to other current greats like Henry Garza and Albert Cummings.
Take it from someone who’s been playing guitar most of his life, and has been in a number of bands. You’re way off on this.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
Again, who are you comparing him to, say, in the current top 100 of pop rock as far as song writing ability? I’m dying to know who on the Billboard 100 (Mayer’s current peers) are blowing the guy out of the water in the songwriting department. Have you heard all of his songs? I’m not saying that every single song the guy pumps out is pure ear candy, but I’d hardly call him a terrible songwriter, not by today’s standards anyway.
[/QUOTE]
You want me to tell you other bands in the top 100 who are better songwriters than him? Is that a joke?
You may have been in a lot of bands, but you might want to listen to more music that what’s just in the top 100 sales before you go making outrageous claims like John Mayer being a good songwriter.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
And you’re wrong about him being a good guitarist. He is as close to SRV as our current generation is going to get. And this is after comparing him to other current greats like Henry Garza and Albert Cummings.
[/QUOTE]
And again, I’m still not entirely sure you even understand my 10%/90% comment. I’m saying that when it comes to writing a truely great song (not just one that you can market into the Top 100), talent (or instrumental ability) means very little if you don’t have the imagination to create something that sounds exciting or fresh. John Mayer writes drab, boring, middle of the road soft rock for college and high school girls.
Look at bands like The Beatles, who, when they started were far from technically proficient; or Johnny Cash, or Elvis Presley, or any of the bands that made the punk movement such a powerful movement for music as an artform. Even with their limited playing ability THEY were the ones who wrote music that changed the way music was written and the way it was played.
I’m guessing by SVR you mean Stevie Ray Vaughn, and again, I’m saying that I personally acknowledge that John Mayer has chops with the guitar, but he cannot write an original, exciting or fresh sounding song worth SHIT.
And for some reason you simply cannot understand that instrumental ability and songwriting ability are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
You want me to tell you other bands in the top 100 who are better songwriters than him? Is that a joke?
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I said the top 100, because that is where his current peers are. I’m not trying to compare him to the greatest songwriters in the world. I’m just comparing him to his peers. No joke, name them. I can’t wait to hear you find some ultra-deep and meaningful passages from the list of today’s collective of studio abortions that make up the current Billboard 100. Nothing is original anymore. Nothing is fresh anymore. That’s because it has all been done already.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
And again, I’m still not entirely sure you even understand my 10%/90% comment. I’m saying that when it comes to writing a truely great song (not just one that you can market into the Top 100), talent (or instrumental ability) means very little if you don’t have the imagination to create something that sounds exciting or fresh. John Mayer writes drab, boring, middle of the road soft rock for college and high school girls.
[/quote]
I understood your statement perfectly well. What I am telling you is that John Mayer is not an awful songwriter. He’s not a beatle by any stretch of the imagination, but considering his roots simmer in blues, and since the blues has never been known for great songwriting, I think he is doing remarkably well.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
Look at bands like The Beatles, who, when they started were far from technically proficient; or Johnny Cash, or Elvis Presley, or any of the bands that made the punk movement such a powerful movement for music as an artform. Even with their limited playing ability THEY were the ones who wrote music that changed the way music was written and the way it was played.
[/quote]
The Beatles were fantastic musicians and fantasic songwriters. The were not far from technically proficient. They were masters of their craft, and I’m not comparing them to John Mayer.
Elvis? Now who’s joking? What did Elvis Presley write? I don’t recall him writing a single, solitary song. He sang a number of songs, but I doubt seriously he wrote more than I can count on the hand of a bad woodshop teacher. Elvis was a singer, not a songwriter. He primarily sang what others had written years before.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
I’m guessing by SVR you mean Stevie Ray Vaughn, and again, I’m saying that I personally acknowledge that John Mayer has chops with the guitar, but he cannot write an original, exciting or fresh sounding song worth SHIT.
[/quote]
And neither could Stevie Ray Vaughan, or most blues guitarists. Blues isn’t about great songwriting. It’s about emotion.
And this:
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
You may have been in a lot of bands, but you might want to listen to more music that what’s just in the top 100 sales before you go making outrageous claims like John Mayer being a good songwriter.
[/quote]
I’m not a fan of the top 100. I think I need to state again, for the record, that I am using the billboard 100 as the measuring stick, because that is where his peers play.
And since you thought I was joking, you must have someone on that list in mind that you think beats the brakes off John Mayer. Let’s see some lyrics from the current crop of ‘talent’ on the top 100. I’m throwing down the gauntlet. All you have to do is pick it up. But, don’t go comparing Mayer to The Beatles, because that is incredibly unfair and silly.
Here is the current list of 10 top songs out on the charts right now and receiving heavy airplay. This is John Mayer’s playground. Good luck. I can’t wait to see what sparkling lyrics you pull out of this cesspool.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
I said the top 100, because that is where his current peers are. I’m not trying to compare him to the greatest songwriters in the world. I’m just comparing him to his peers. No joke, name them. I can’t wait to hear you find some ultra-deep and meaningful passages from the list of today’s collective of studio abortions that make up the current Billboard 100. Nothing is original anymore. Nothing is fresh anymore. That’s because it has all been done already.
[/QUOTE]
To suggest that because John Mayer is in the Top 100 automatically makes the other artists in the Top 100 his “peers” is an asinine comment. I’m afraid “asinine” is as far as I can go without having to move this thread to the Pit.
Congratuations, you just admitted that you make absolutely no effort to search for the good music that is being made these days. Which essentially renders your opinion obsolute, but I’ll continue anyway, since I don’t have anything better to do tonight.
But since you insist, let’s talk about artists better than John Mayer in the Top 100. Ok, let’s start at the top, Justin Timberlake. I was never a fan of the guy in his boyband days, but the simple fact of the matter is that he (or whoever IS writing his songs) are coming up with some really fresh pop music that doesn’t follow today’s trends.
And let’s talk Timbaland, who produced for JT, Missy Elliot, and Nelly Furtado. When it comes to most hip hop these days, the producers are the real stars and music makers, and Timbaland does more creative things with his sampling than I have heard John Mayer do in a dozen songs.
Then let’s look at the song that’s one step below ol’ Johnny boy, “Crazy” by Gnarls Barkley, easily one of the best singles this year.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
I understood your statement perfectly well. What I am telling you is that John Mayer is not an awful songwriter. He’s not a beatle by any stretch of the imagination, but considering his roots simmer in blues, and since the blues has never been known for great songwriting, I think he is doing remarkably well.
[/QUOTE]
You just admitted that John Mayer is a blues guitarist and blues guitarists are not good songwriters, so…what exactly is the point you’re trying to make? It seems like you’re agreeing with me.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
The Beatles were fantastic musicians and fantasic songwriters. The were not far from technically proficient. They were masters of their craft, and I’m not comparing them to John Mayer.
[/QUOTE]
Of course The Beatles were proficient, you have to be capable of playing the songs that you’re writing. But at the very beginning they were no where near as good as they grew to be, and they were certainly never virtuosos at their instruments.
And I know you weren’t comparing them to John Mayer. I was. I was making the point that you don’t NEED to be a virtuoso in order to write songs that can completely change music. John Mayer is a very good guitarist but somehow he ends up writing songs that aren’t very good.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
And neither could Stevie Ray Vaughan, or most blues guitarists. Blues isn’t about great songwriting. It’s about emotion.
[/QUOTE]
I would argue that the two are intertwined. If music strikes me on an emotional level it’s usually because the singer/musician did a good job of writing his song. So I’m not sure how you can really separate the two.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
And this:
And since you thought I was joking, you must have someone on that list in mind that you think beats the brakes off John Mayer. Let’s see some lyrics from the current crop of ‘talent’ on the top 100. I’m throwing down the gauntlet. All you have to do is pick it up. But, don’t go comparing Mayer to The Beatles, because that is incredibly unfair and silly.
Here is the current list of 10 top songs out on the charts right now and receiving heavy airplay. This is John Mayer’s playground. Good luck. I can’t wait to see what sparkling lyrics you pull out of this cesspool.
[/QUOTE]
Oh my! Throwing down the gauntlet! You want me to compare John Mayer to the top 10?
Explain to me please what makes these individuals John Mayer’s peers. Aside from the fact that they all have big label money and marketing behind them. I’ll be waiting anxiously for that explanation.
Let’s recap our debate so far. I started out by comparing John Mayer to good songwriters. John Mayer is not one.
You challenged my claim by asking me to compare John to people at the top of the billboard charts.
…
…
…
That’s like comparing shit to shit.
How is that in any way relevant to my original claim that John Mayer is not a good songwriter? Your challenge doesn’t follow simple logic.
I claim that John Mayer isn’t a good songwriter, and then in turn you ask me to compare him to other crappy songwriters. THEY ARE ALL CRAP! Even if he is the BEST of the shit, he’s still shit.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
To suggest that because John Mayer is in the Top 100 automatically makes the other artists in the Top 100 his “peers” is an asinine comment. I’m afraid “asinine” is as far as I can go without having to move this thread to the Pit.
[/quote]
By all means, move it to the Pit. That’s MY playground. 
The top 100 is pop music. John Mayer writes popular music. People who write popular music and have it hit the charts (many times in John Mayer’s case) are publishing among their peers. Indeed, they are his peers.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
Congratuations, you just admitted that you make absolutely no effort to search for the good music that is being made these days. Which essentially renders your opinion obsolute, but I’ll continue anyway, since I don’t have anything better to do tonight.
[/quote]
When did I do that? I listen to a wide variety of music, most of which will never see the light of day. John Mayer has written a number of good songs that you have never heard, because they aren’t a part of traditional pop music and therefore get no radio play.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
But since you insist, let’s talk about artists better than John Mayer in the Top 100. Ok, let’s start at the top, Justin Timberlake.
[/quote]
You’re not…
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
I was never a fan of the guy in his boyband days, but the simple fact of the matter is that he (or whoever IS writing his songs) are coming up with some really fresh pop music
[/quote]
Oh man, you are…
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
that doesn’t follow today’s trends.
[/quote]
The stun gun absurdity in that remark was that you just derailed the hell out of your entire argument (with Amtrak-like speed) by admitting that sampling and having other people write your music is the same as songwriting.
I dare you, DARE you to cite one single passage from ANY Timberlake song that either he wrote (or hell, didn’t write–I’m feeling magnanimous) that is in any way ‘fresh’. Let me feast my eyes on the original, never before penned lyrical masterwork that is Justin Timberlake. Please, oh God please tell me I am being whooshed here. I’m laughing so hard only because if I stop, I’ll begin crying, and I can’t let Jaade see me cry.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
And let’s talk Timbaland, who produced for JT, Missy Elliot, and Nelly Furtado. When it comes to most hip hop these days, the producers are the real stars and music makers, and Timbaland does more creative things with his sampling than I have heard John Mayer do in a dozen songs.
[/quote]
So then, you admit that JT, Missy Elliot, and Nelly Furtado suck so bad at songwriting that the producer has to intervene on the creativity side of things by SAMPLING.
Yeah, I’m definitely being whooshed here. Did you know that there are artists out there that actually write their own music? Yeah, I know.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
You just admitted that John Mayer is a blues guitarist and blues guitarists are not good songwriters, so…what exactly is the point you’re trying to make? It seems like you’re agreeing with me.
[/quote]
I’m not, though. I said that John Mayer wasn’t a terrible songwriter, like you have done. I didn’t say he was a world-class songwriter either. My opinion is that he is very competent. Better, by far, than your cites above, of that I am certain, you know, since the boy does actually write his own lyrics.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
I claim that John Mayer isn’t a good songwriter, and then in turn you ask me to compare him to other crappy songwriters. THEY ARE ALL CRAP! Even if he is the BEST of the shit, he’s still shit.
[/QUOTE]
Wait…
How many songs by John Mayer have you heard? Please list them, truthfully.
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast]
Wait…
How many songs by John Mayer have you heard? Please list them, truthfully.
[/QUOTE]
The ones that apparently aren’t the “underground, non-radio ones.”
All arguing aside, if such songs exist please link me to some, because I’m interested in hearing his songs if he does infact have some that are good.
But yeah, as to the rest of your post, I’m not gonna be able to do that outside of the pit, because your lack of education or open mindedness about music is so staggering and mindblowing that I am literally on the verge of an aneurism. Pit thread to follow.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
The ones that apparently aren’t the “underground, non-radio ones.”
All arguing aside, if such songs exist please link me to some, because I’m interested in hearing his songs if he does infact have some that are good.
[/QUOTE]
I’m enjoying watching the two of you trade blows on something this silly and pedantic, and was happy to just sit back and watch.
But now I’ll chime in and say go to amazon or iTunes or whatever you prefer, and check out the tracks “Who Did You Think I Was” “Gravity” “Wait Until Tomorrow” or “Out of My Mind”, all off the album I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread, Try!. I’ll admit that his radioplay is mediocre pap, but this album is a side project where he could actually, y’know, play music that’s completely wrong for his mainstream projects.
Incidentally, I’ve read the lyrics of “Who Did You Think I Was” to be an admission on the part of Mayer that, yeah, he writes mainstream junk because it sells, but he’s able and willing to do more:
I got half a smile and zero shame
I got a reflection with a different name
Got a brand new blues that I can’t explain
Who did you think I was?
…
You got my number but I always knew the score
Who did you think I was?
[QUOTE=Only Mostly Dead]
I’m enjoying watching the two of you trade blows on something this silly and pedantic, and was happy to just sit back and watch.
But now I’ll chime in and say go to amazon or iTunes or whatever you prefer, and check out the tracks “Who Did You Think I Was” “Gravity” “Wait Until Tomorrow” or “Out of My Mind”, all off the album I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread, Try!. I’ll admit that his radioplay is mediocre pap, but this album is a side project where he could actually, y’know, play music that’s completely wrong for his mainstream projects.
[/QUOTE]
I was getting ready to say the same thing, but I think you have to omit Wait Until Tomorrow, as it is a Jimi Hendrix tune.
So…John Mayer does have some good songs, but he’s forced to stick them in a side project because God forbid he screw up his ho-hum mainstream money making appeal?
Forget the suggestions, I just lost all respect for the man. If you’re going to be an artist or a musician, let it all hang out. If your records don’t sell, oh well, at least you’re being true to yourself. John’s mainstream music has made it clear that his ISN’T being true to himself as a musician or songwriter, and therefore he doesn’t deserve one ounce of my respect.
But what do I know? I’m just the guy who’s lack of education or open mindedness about music is so staggering and mindblowing as to give someone an aneurism.