OK, I had 3 thoughts. #1, how about Anne McCaffrey’s Pern series? With the exception of language, it meets all of the guidlines from the OP (“Remember, we’re talking real depth here. Languages, histories, geographies, religions, and legends all laboriously created, contributed to the whole.”). I would say the same about Mercedes Lackey and her Valdemar books.
Finally, how do you feel about alternative history? Is it cheating because it starts with our existing world and then diverges? Harry Turtledove has created two very complete versions of a different earth, both from the Sci-Fi perspective (Worldwar/Colonization series) and from simply the “if this had happened what would have followed?” perspective (How Few Remain/Great War series/American Empire series/Settling Accounts series).
Hope you enjoy the Pullman books (I hated them); you’ll have to let us know.
I agree with whoever mentioned “Jonathan Strange”. Obviously not as detailed as JRRT’s stuff, but fascinating world-building nonetheless.
Partly because of my job(s), I read mainly children’s or young adult stuff. Many writers for these age groups are trying world-building series, with hopes of making piles of money a la Harry Potter, I suppose. Still, I found the world of the three “Septimus Heap” books by Angie Sage to be really fun.
How do you all feel the Oz books fit into the discussion?
Actually, on reading various Pern books I was pretty much convinced that McCaffrey didn’t have extensive notes on her work – details are inconsistent from book to book and occasionally within the book. Lackey maybe has some world-building detail, but it’s probably quite sparse in comparison to the Master’s work.
I think that it’s possible to be fooled by the complexity of these settings which came about simply because so many books have been written in the settings. They seem quite detailed because details have accreted over time. The authors did not set out to create the details as their primary goal, it was incidental. I suspect that Tolkien could have bored your ears off by telling you details of the rhyme schemes of epic poetry during the early First Age. I’m pretty sure that McCaffery and Lackey have no background on the in-world development of the songs they throw out in their books*.
I once attended a lecture by MZB and asked her how she kept the details straight from novel to novel. She looked rather blank for a moment, then said “Oh, my dear, why would I do that?” Building up a separately detailed and consistent background for her Darkover novels just wasn’t something she’d ever done. However, Darkover is detailed, because she’d written so much about it. If that makes sense.
which, frankly, come off as filking songs, anyway, and that’s not in favor of verisimilitude at all.
I think the Pullman books are more remarkable for the novelty of their settings than for the depth of the world-building. Lots of pretty interesting things going on there, and not like anything else I can think of right off the top of my head.*
Aside: Since I’ve read sf/fantasy for many, many years, I’m old and jaded and tend to yawn at a lot of the “new” stuff. Coming across a book with a genuinely new and interesting take on things is a rare development these days. Pullman counts, as does Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, and China Mieville, and some of Peter Watts. But not many of them build very detailed worlds.
I suppose I just don’t really have a problem with that myself. I can appreciate an author who takes discrete, existing elements and work them into something new. Besides, it’s hinted at in the books that the world is Earth, just so far along the timeline (back or forward, take your pick), that it’s unrecognizable, but some common elements remain.
I won’t try to claim it’s a good series, I know how a discussion like that would go already. But as far as world creation, I do think that Jordan’s world is fairly solid, even if his writing isn’t.
Oh, I quite like the world he created. I just think he was really transparent in the elements he “lifted” from other sources. And of course, I wish he’d just hurry up and finish the damned series.
(I just knew when I saw your name as the last poster in this thread that you were replying to me.
I like Lois McMaster Bujold. Again, not as detailed as Tolkien, but in my philistine opinion she’s much more readable. She has much interesting background in the Vorkosigan Saga, and in her Chalion series (which is fantasy). Although she doesn’t create entire languages, like Tolkien, she does use language creatively to provide a foreign feeling to the stories. I also like the religions she sets up for Chalion - simple, natural, rich, and with much room for conflict.
