Anyone else bored by "The Matrix"'s hand-to-hand fight scenes?

Okay, so we saw the new Matrix today. The plot and philosophy of it is for another thread (and, in fact, there is one), but what I’m concerned about is the hand-to-hand fight scenes.

I found them boring, predictable (in the sense that I knew what each character was going to do move-wise before they did it) and just really … blah. Each one was a new adventure in “when is this going to END so we can get to something more interesting?”

Maybe it’s the training I got in martial arts, but when you have someone lunging fist-first at another person, and the rest of the punch takes what seems like five seconds to land (a long time in combat, let me tell you), and you repeat that for about a solid minute per fighter, it leaves me less than impressed.

Punch, block. Lunge, move. Punch, move. Kick, swivel. Kick back, swivel back. Punch, throw. Punch punch. Jump, turn in air, throw self at other person. Repeat for next five minutes and mext four fight scenes.

Y
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For one of the last ones I literally found myself putting my head in my right hand and saying to myself “Oh crap, another one. When is this going to end?”

'm I the only one here?

[sub]Pompous? Me? Why never![/sub]

No, you are not. This has become an enormous problem in almost all modern action movies that don’t star Jackie Chan. (And even his are only half-watchable.)

Matrix Reloaded is a particularly egregious example, though. I can stop bullets in mid-air so – let’s hit each other with sticks instead! Idiocy. Why would computer programs fight with hand to hand combat in the first place?

I finally decided, for the sake of my sanity, that martial art fights are the modern movie version of musical numbers in the old days. From Busby Berkeley in the 1930s to Gene Kelly in the 1950s viewers saw and loved a million movies in which for no reason at all everybody just stopped and started singing and dancing in perfectly choreographed fashion with fancy costumes and incredible sets. The vast majority of the time the plot and dialog and characterization surrounding these scenes were somewhere between barely adequate and simply abysmal. Viewers didn’t seem to care as long as the music was fun.

Today we see action movies in which the vast majority of the time the plot and dialog and characterization surrounding martial art scenes are somewhere between barely adequate and simply abysmal. Viewers didn’t seem to care as long as the fights are noisy and the explosions huge - or vice versa.

Note, though, that the musical finally destroyed itself as a genre. I have to hope against all hope that martial arts (or car chase) action movies are at a total dead end and that somebody new will think of something new and different that will end this torment.

Yeah, agreed.

I though the movie was pretty good, but every fight scene was just a liiiiittle too long. The Neo Vs. W Whole Buncha Smiths scene was the worst of the bunch; it just went on and on and on with nothing new actually happening, just one Neo-beats-up-another-guy move. The silly logic of the movie doesn’t bother me - what bothered me was the poor screenwriting in choosing to allow the fight scenes to drag on without adding anything new. You could have a full minute out of the Neo-vs-Smiths fight scene and not only would you lose nothing, but you’d speed the movie up and make it better. The fight scene against the dudes who worked for the French dude was much the same.

The only extended scene in the film that I thought WASN’T too long was the car chase, because in that case different things actually happened, rather than just an endless string of kung fu moves. A guy would shoot someone, and then another guy would jump from a vehicle to another vehicle, then you had a fight scene, then someone would start shooting - they mixed it up a bit there, so it worked for me.

As one columnist put it, the central failure of the movie was that they failed to realize that people don’t want to see “The Matrix” again; they want to have the same experience they had when they saw “The Matrix.”, but to do that you’d have to come up with something genuinely innovative. Most of “The Matrix Reloaded” was not innovative. It was a good enough movie, but not up to the standards of the first.

I think right now the car chase and martial arts use in movies are sorta combining for those two ultra polar reactions:

  1. “Oh man they’re fighting in/around/with a moving vehicle. That is SO COOL”;

  2. “This movie substitutes ‘action’ and chases and stuff blowing up for substance and character development and other such things as require more thought than ‘that guy kicked that other guy in the balls, dude.’”

And as long as there is a thriving market in the former, that’s fine. But as someone who used to really enjoy chase scenes, fights, etc … it’s getting increasingly difficult to satisfy me. Maybe I’m not alone in that.

I thought they varied, honestly. The fight with Seraph (the Oracle’s guardian) seemed the most fake of them all in one way - to me it felt like sparring, with the set rhythm that develops, the sense of choreography, and no blows ever actually landing. And the Neo vs. Smiths got worse as it got on, since it looked faker the more Smiths were added (by the time they got to 100, it looked like a decent videogame.) But I enjoyed the slightly more unusual ones, such as things with the Ghost Twins, or the fight in the chateau with all of the weaponry, even if it was a bit too long. Of course, I don’t see too many kung fu movies, so it may be that I’m just less jaded

Each of the major fight scenes in the first movie meant something, be it Morpeus v. Neo in the Dojo (training), Morpheus v. Smith in the bathroom (giving the others a chance to escape) and Neo v. Smith in the subway (Neo gradually becomes The One).

In this sequel, though, too mnany the fights were just pointless. Neo v. Agents (at the meeting) was mildly interesting, but Neo v. Multiple-Smith just went on way too long, Neo v. Seraph was just stupid and Morpheus v. White Rastas was just a pointless distraction from an otherwise interesting car chase.

Matrix Reloaded gave away all its cooler visuals in the trailers, and the other scenes were excessively talky and slow and empty. Thumbs down.

Nope, not in the slightest. Just curious, though: do you have the same reaction to all martial arts movies? Doesn’t

describe just about every chop-socky movie ever made? I, for one, didn’t find the fight scenes to be very derivitive of anything in the first movie, which I remember more for its gunplay than its fist fights. What were the big martial arts set pieces from the first one? Off the top of my head, I only remember Neo training with Morpheus, and Neo fighting Agent Smith. Most of the rest of it was just impressive displays of small arms fire power, as I recall.

Well, I admit that Neo v. Morpheus was a lot like Neo v. Seraph (the oracle’s bodyguard), but that fight was only a minute or two long.

Maybe it helps that I’m totally ignorant of real martial arts. I may get banned for saying this on the SDMB, but sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I went into The Matrix Reloaded without seeing a single trailer. I was also in a good mood, wide awake, and was not overdosed on hype. Thus, I was not bored; I rather enjoyed the hand to hand fight scenes.

For me, the scenes were innovative and topped similar movies in the genre, such as Bulletproof Monk and X2.

Sadly, some people cannot seem to enjoy these types of movies for what they are. Not everyone liked Moulin Rouge, either.

I thought the fight scenes were extremely dull. They dragged on for way too long, and nothing interesting ever happened during any of them.

I was really hoping that since Neo is The One and can manipulate the Matrix, there would be no point in hand-to-hand combat for him. That’s what I got out of the first movie, so I was expecting something more in this movie.

A missed opportunity in the hand-to-hand combat is also apparent. The brothers who play the Ghost Twins are real martial arts experts. How come all we saw them do was phase in and out, drive a huge Cadillac, and shoot guns? What a waste of talent. If there had to be “kung fu” in this movie, it should have at least involved these guys.

Yeah, the Neo vs Smithessess was a bit over the top, but isn’t that the whole point? Agreed, the stills and snippets they show of the film do highlight the average CG work, but taken as a whole and remembering the sheer pace of the fight, it’s still pretty good.

That said, there is an annoying tread in movies to add fights for the sake of fighting. It’s almost getting to the point where it’s as fun as watching your big brother play a computer game you can’t master. Or watching Dragonball Z.

It’s also fun to annoy your friends by pointing out all the times the actors block before the guy throws the kick/punch.

Miller, truth be told I haven’t enjoyed more than half of a fight scene since Bruce Lee died, so it’s probably more than a little of me just being spoiled.

However, there is one aspect of The Matric Reloaded that just took it over the top for me. That’s the fact that theee fiiiiighhhttttsssss gggggooooo slllooooooooowwwlly aaaannnndddd tttthhheeeeee moooooooooves aaaaare teeeleeegraaapppphed.

I don’t just mean the speed. I mean the movement. Unless the point of a fight is to show someone’s inability to fight (which, at least for some of them, isn’t supposed to be the case), they bloody well ought to look like they can fight.

Now, I am not an expert at martial arts … or much of anything else, for that matter. However, if you bring me someone to fight I can guarantee you of one thing: you’ll know where I hit them by where they hold themselves. I don’t telegraph my moves. Not to be a totally pompous little nugget, Miller, but do you know what I mean when I say that? Here’s an example:

In one of the fights (and honestly, so many of them were just so repetitive that a few have run together), one of the Smiths lunges forward with his entire half body to punch Neo. Now, this would be annoying and boring if he were doing it at actual contact speed (which, truthfully, if he’s had more than a few years of training, is several times faster than it was done in the movie). But it’s that whole “Oh God, I have to watch this guy move like he doesn’t know how to punch for the next minute” … at least, it seems that way;) Basically I can see in “a split second” where the guy (basically whoever it is, and this isn’t really restricted to this movie) is going to move, and from that I can pretty much immediately think of a few moves the other person could make to either counter the attack, block, or do something else like move behind the guy. I know it’d be boring if the other person just ended the fight right there, but it’s the way the fights just go on for so long and it doesn’t look natural to me at all.

So basically what I mean by telegraphing moves is that I can tell where the person is going, so it’s like I’m doing a mile run and I have to stop every few seconds so the other person can catch up. It gets REALLY old REALLY quick. And iiiiiiifff iiiiiit’s beeeeeing shoooooown innnnn slooooooooow mooooootion, iiiiiit geeeeeeets reeeeeeeeally ooooold really quick.

And re: your point about the fights being similar to the first (or not), I found them to be extremely similar in terms of moves/sequences used. Apart from the costumes and scenario, there really was not much difference to me between some of the scenes in the first and in the second.

I don’t think anyone would say I was overhyped for the movie. I was awake and in a decently good mood, but I was pretty sure going into this movie that it would be more of the same from The Matrix (1).

I was not overly impressed by The Matrix (1)'s fight scenes (apart from, initially, that whole bullet thing), and the few that were not painfully dull to me involved people obviously exerting effort (like Neo’s difficult fight with Smith). However, the second time I saw it I was much less impressed (although still more impressed than by the hand-to-hand fight scenes in Reloaded).

To be fair, though, again it’s difficult to satisfy me with fight scenes. Many of my friends, some of whom are martial arts aficionados, were satisfied, if not somewhat impressed, with the scenes from such films as Drunken Master. I liked a few, but none of them made me feel the way Bruce Lee’s scenes still make me feel, many times after I saw them initially. Slightly OT, but I happened to catch some previously-unreleased footage of fights from the movie Bruce was working on when he died, and those made me nearly orgasmic.

Nothing in a fight scene not involving Bruce Lee has done so.

Now, you clearly know more about fighting than I do, but maybe you need to think outside the box on this? In a real-life fight, throwing yourself at someone like that is probably real dumb, because at worst what you’ll do is distract them for half a second while getting smacked down. But that’s exactly what Smith #83 would have wanted to do, you see? Just distract Neo so eight more of him can take him.

They aren’t even meant to be real fights. You know, computer simulation, bending or breaking “physical” rules, that sort of thing? I would not, therefore, expect any of the participants to fight in a realistic manner. I also don’t see them as being meant to be representative of real-time fighting, either. It may look slow on the screen, but the idea is supposed to be that everything is slowed down for the viewer because Agents (or former Agents) and Neo move inhumanly fast. The cuts to super-slo-mo accentuate this fact (as well as emphasize the reality-bending stuff).

If they played these fights “real time”, they would certainly be a hell of a lot shorter. But then you’d have no idea what really happened.

iampunha: I understand what you’re saying intellectually, but I wouldn’t know what to look for on the big screen. And I’ve heard similar complaints about other movies. The way I approach it is, it’s not supposed to look real, it’s supposed to look interesting. To me, watching a kung-fu movie and complaining that the fights aren’t realistic is like watching Shakespeare and complaining that people don’t really speak in blank verse. Realism isn’t the point. I’ve never seen a serious fight in real life, but I’ve seen a lot of boxing and “ultimate fighting” challenges, because a lot of my friends are into that stuff. I don’t know how real the ultimate fighting stuff is (I suspect not very, but I’m cynical that way), but to me it’s incredibly dull. Backflips and jump kicks may be stupid and impracticle in real life, but I’m not going to the movies for real life.

I was bored pretty much through the whole movie. (and was promptly jumped on by my family.)

During the fight with all the Mr. Smiths, I couldn’t help thinking that it was over-animated. I found myself thinking "That looks like the fight scene from “Shrek”, which, of course, was taken from “Matrix”.

I am afraid I kept chanelling other movies while I watched, especially the Keymaster stuff.

“I am the Keymaker”

/Ghostbusters/
“Are you the Gatekeeper?”
“I am the Keymaster”
/Ghostbusters/

I thought they were boring.
B O R I N G!
No, you’re not the only one.

So, what martial arts films do you like, other than ones starring Bruce Lee?

That was the Keymaker in Matrix 2.

Oddly, this is the second time I’ve corrected someone on this on the boards.

[QUOTE]

<snip>
*I am afraid I kept chanelling other movies while I watched, especially the Keymaster stuff.

"I am the Keymaker"*

/Ghostbusters/
“Are you the Gatekeeper?”
“I am the Keymaster”
/Ghostbusters/ QUOTE]
Well at least I got it right in the quote.

:smack:

I wasn’t bored at all. I was very impressed by the over-the-top stuff, like Neo knocking Smiths 40 feet into the air with a big pole. I was however very unimpressed with the CG. Now, part of the fighting was really realistic (as in when it was actual actors being filmed), but the rest was very clearly animated. The characters still moved realistically, but they didn’t look right :(.

I still liked the movie though.