Two days ago you were asking if you could have your housekeeper come in. Compared to that, this is incredibly low risk, if people are actually ten feet apart and bring their own chair and booze. I don’t think yelling at him like he’s an idiot to consider it is appropriate.
That was two days ago. And I got shut down, as I’m shutting you down. Things are moving quickly.
We’re doing social isolation very seriously. My wife has not stepped foot outside our house for almost two weeks.
In what way do you quantify this as “incredibly low risk”, and how are you going to ensure that people respect this hypothetically safe 10 foot distance? When people need to use the restroom, do they walk home or pee behind a bush? What happens the first time wants to show someone else a video on their phone and everyone clusters around to see?
We are incredibly social animals, and this instinct is difficult to fight in the presence of other people. This is true even for physicians, nurses, and epidemiologists who live with the reality of infectious disease by occupation. We naturally gather in groups because it feels warm and safe even though that is the very means by which infection spreads.
Dr. John Campbell on the state of contagion, morbidity, and mortality around the world.
Stranger
If steronz’s question was a hypothetical one, I’d say you were fighting the hypothetical. Manda JO, on the other hand, was taking it at face value (“if people are actually ten feet apart…”).
I appreciate you and kenobi 65 explaining why it’s a bad idea, but your reasons basically hinge on: “because people wouldn’t stay 10 feet apart.”
Right. They’re neighbors so if they have to use the restroom they’d walk home. They’re adults so I’d trust to them to not hover around phones looking at cat memes. Right now we’ve stopped to chat with neighbors on walks, the weather has been nice so many of us are outside with dogs and/or exercising, and standing 6-10 feet apart while catching up is not in violation of any guidelines I’ve seen.
However Stranger does touch on my concern – not so much actual transmission risk or even bad optics, but more like, do we want to avoid anything that feels like socializing just to avoid normalizing it?
eta: We’ve been on some form of lockdown here for 2 weeks, we’re adhering to all state and Fauci guidelines. I canceled my houescleaner (still paying though) 2 weeks ago. We’re being good citizens, nearest I can tell. I’m not trying to skirt the system, but I think maintaining sanity is going to be important.
That wasn’t the question. Taken as asked: are two people sitting 10 feet apart on lawn chairs outdoor, and never coming any closer, engaging in socially irresponsible behavior?
I mean, to me, if you are actually doing that, it’s not socially irresponsible. I guess it’s legitimate to ask if people will actually abide by the parameters, but I think most neighbors can.
If it’s not safe to sit on at one end of your driveway and shout at a neighbor at the other, then lock-down orders need to quit telling people it’s okay to go outside for solitary exercise. Because I am going on a walk every day, and even though I detour off the sidewalk and walk around people I see, I do come within 10 ft of them. Is that really unwise, when out of doors?
I think telling people they can’t have a 10ft away happy hour, where you have adult neighbors who are actually following the rules seriously (and will go home to go to the bathroom), is a great way to have people go nuts. Especially when we probably have 2 months to go with this. The guidelines state stay 6 feet away from each other - if you are actually following it, I see nothing wrong with the 10ft away happy hour.
Since nothing I say seems to have any impact (and honestly, I am not a medical authority, just someone who happens to be well-read in epidemiology and virology), I’ll just encourage you to watch this: Dr. John Campbell, Friday 27 March Update: “Our health depends on everyone else.”
Make your own decisions but realize that those decisions impact people beyond yourself.
Stranger
The problem is that people aren’t nearly as awesome as they think. No, I can guarantee you that they will not all go home and wash their hands immediately. They will not even all stay 10’ apart. People are just not that reliable. So it’s better for people to try and hit a higher level of care so it’s not so bad when people miss the mark.
It’s real simple. Would you have a 10ft away happy hour with the neighbors if the virus was Ebola?
CMC fnord!
Do you think people who are walking alone outside right now are being socially irresponsible?
Here’s the what you need to realize: if they actually have the virus then yes they are being horribly irresponsible. If they think they only might be infected, then they are gambling on whether they are being horribly irresponsible or not.
So when you went out to buy essentials last week, are you unshakeably positive you didn’t pick it up?
Why? How are they risking spreading the infection by walking alone outside?
Because they will touch stuff and talk to people. If you are perfectly reliable then of course this doesn’t apply to you. :dubious:
Did China and/or Italy or anywhere else have a blanket ban on going outdoors for any reason besides necessity? I vaguely recall the former having one and the latter not, but I don’t know if I’m remembering right.
I’m not trying to be difficult. I am trying to find the edges of this. If I leave my house and walk around the block, in the open air with a slight breeze, where is the method whereby I could transmit the virus to someone else? I have no reason to suspect I am sick, but I also really want to be socially responsible. But I can’t see how in that action I am raising anyone else’s risk at all.
There’s nothing to touch. I’m walking down a sidewalk. There’s no one to talk to, except people sitting on their porch, 25 or more feet back. I understand saying “if you go the store, you can’t help touching things”. But on a walk around the block?
There is a qualitative difference between people walking outside by themselves or members of their household who might have incidental contact with someone else at a reasonable distance to prevent aerosol transmission, and people sitting around for hours in close proximity. There is nothing magical about a 6 ft (or 10 ft) separation that will assure that no transmission occurs; it is just an easy-to-remember figure that people can make a best effort to follow in regular contact (and that you still violate every time you go to the grocery store or pick up food at a restaurant) which seeks to minimize the potential for being infected. If you decide that this risk is worth it so you can drink and socialize, well, that is your choice, but consider that if one person in this gathering is unknowingly infected, and despite best efforts to maintain distance infects two or three other people, that means the virus is transmitted to those households, and from there potentially to anyone else (grocery clerks, delivery people, EMTs, et cetera) that they are in contact with.
I’m done responding for now because I’ve hit my limit of trying to maintain a patient, factual tone with people who continue to insist that they should be able to do as they please, epidemic be damned. I will just encourage you to watch the John Campbell videos because he lays it all out in stark figures and data on what is actually happening in countries where the social isolation was too late or relaxed. You can choose to live in reality or ignore it, but consider that what you do affects other people as well.
Stranger
A slight breeze should push your distance between people, first off.
I am sure if you’re careful that you can responsibly take a walk around the block. I’m just saying, take it seriously still.
Eta: I think part of my impatience, and I suspect Stranger’s too, is that “I gotta go for a walk or SOMETHING” is just not a way I ever think. I have a feeling if the health advisory was “don’t read the internet” we would all have great justifications for exceptions.