What if the window only has a screen in it?
CMC fnord!
Staying indoors and self-isolating as much as possible is the best option because it’s easy to remember, and we have a high degree of certainty that it will be effective.
OTOH, trying to keep up with whether a “safe” distance is 6 or 8 or 10 feet*, trying to to determine whether COVID-19 can be aerosolized or not…is complicated. As CK has pointed out, there are uncertainties, “known unknowns” and “unknown unknowns.” Keep in mind, too, that even if you can ascertain relatively certain answers to these questions…people make mistakes. They forget not to touch their faces. They forget to wash their hands. Forget to wipe down doorknobs and countertops. They might walk into the path of someone who just sneezed in their vicinity a few minutes earlier. One mistake - that’s all it takes. And if you don’t die, you’re looking possibly at a lot of financial pain if you’re in the US.
- FWIW, a cough can typically travel up to 6 meters (roughly 18-20 feet). A sneeze can go even further - about 8 meters (24+ feet). If you’re in an enclosed space, droplets can often stay airborne for 10 minutes, if not longer.
No, I am not doing any of these things. I am stupid risk adverse. But I am not self-righteous about it. I am trying to show you that your thinking is based as much on knee-jerk feels as it is on science. THIS feels wrong THAT feels right. It just doesn’t FEEL right to let an AIDS patient in the public school. It just doesn’t FEEL dangerous stop and talk to a neighbor in the grocery store. It FEELS like it would be okay if dad is behind glass, three feet away, but not if there is a 10 foot buffer of fresh air between us. Feelings and intuitions are not what we need here.
I’m very glad Banquet Bear provided actual guidance. I come to this thread for actual guidance. It can’t be provided if everyone is just going to try to show off who is the most paranoid and say no no no at everything, no matter what.
I’m interested in this shit. I want to understand it. I came into the discussion thinking it was self-evident that ten feet of open air would be enough to dissipate any amount of virus to a level so low that it was no longer a threat. Apparently there are authorities that disagree. That’s worth knowing, and I will follow that advice. But, I still wonder. I would still like to know if there are any recorded cases in the history of any disease that spread that way. Maybe measles?
I am not being self righteous. You are just really starting to frustrate me. We don’t know right now the exact safety limits so I suggest overly cautious. You keep saying “But I want to know! Why are you so mad that I want to know?”
CarnalK, when was the last time you went to get groceries?
…the question was "OK or Not OK. Four words. The longest word was only three letters long. You can’t get more binary than “OK or Not OK.” Two options were presented. Thelmalou picked one of them.
I’ve provided you with a treasure trove of information backed by the science written in a way that a layperson could understand. We don’t have to do what “feels right.” We don’t need to be lead to “essential oils.” We can listen to the scientific consensus and do what we need to do to keep ourselves and everyone else safe.
We know the answer to this. You’ve got an incompetent unqualified person running your country, and this person and his actions are supported by millions of Americans. There is nobody steering the ship. The science is being ignored.
What you need to do is actually quite simple. Close the borders, everybody stay home, massive test and trace. Ramp up production and distribution of the relevant medical equipment. Follow the various plans for a pandemic that we know the administration has on file.
But the reason this isn’t happening isn’t because “there are things to figure out.” Answering the question “can I have a happy hour with my neighbour” isn’t one of the things that will get you out of this mess of a situation. I perfectly understand the need to ask this question, I don’t object to you asking the question, I don’t even object to asking for clarification. But Thelmalou and Stranger haven’t done anything much wrong here. Tone is something easily misinterpreted when not in person.
Nobody is calling for this discussion to be shut down. Thelmalou answered a short and curt question with a short and curt answer, thats all.
Difference between Informative and Persuasive Speeches
What it looks like to me is that requests for informative speeches are being met with persuasive speeches.
…the dates I provided from the Spinoff weren’t posted in chronological order so advice posted in earlier posts have been superseded by later ones. The government has introduced a series of levels: we are currently at Alert Level 4. At level 4 we can only purchase food from the supermarkets: everything else (as in practically every other shop and business that isn’t operating from home) is closed. You can go for a walk in your local neighbourhood, but no further. You have to remain in your bubble and limit all interactions with people outside of your bubble.
We’ve done it this way because people, being people, will try and push the letter of the law. So this wasn’t introduced overnight, we were firstly introduced to the concepts of Levels and placed on level 2: then it ramped up from there. By the time we got to level 4 most of us had mentally prepared for it.
The reason why the Prime Minister has suggested you imagine you’ve got Corvid-19 is so that every decision that you make is deliberated on. Did you need to go for that walk? Did you need to talk to your neighbours across the street? Did you need that carryout dinner? It sounds like you didn’t need to do any of these things. By doing so you increased the risk (ever so slightly) of becoming part of the chain of transmission. If it was **only **you that went out for the carryout dinner it wouldn’t matter that much. But if **everyone **makes the same calculus as you then that changes the equation. In order for the New Zealand strategy to work it counts on as many people as possible buying into the strategy. That’s why the entire process has been open and clear and explained every step of the way.
That this hasn’t been part of the messaging in Ohio doesn’t surprise me at all. America is woefully unprepared for what is about to hit them. If I were in America I’d probably go find a community of (left-wing liberal) preppers, if such a thing existed. I’d be hunkering down with a couple of years supply of food and supplies and cutting myself off from the world. What is coming is so much worse than what most people are imagining in this thread. The government here has obviously been preparing us for this since January. We’ve got a chance. The tsunami is about to hit now in America and many places are only just starting to think about “what should we do?”
I’m trying to be calm here for the sake of discussion. But America IMHO is on a collision course for a dystopian nightmare.
I think 4-5 days ago.
So reckless.
Banquet Bear, Steronz himself has said he/she felt attacked. And I have thanked you, repeatedly, for bringing actual information to the table. CarnalK is the one who keeps saying “everything, no matter what, should be no no no” but then acting like I’m the idiot when I point out that he himself thinks some things are ok–so how is he deciding which is which?
I am not trying to figure out what my country should do. I know what my country should do, but I can’t effect that change. I mean I want to know what I, as a person, can do. Can I safely take my son on a walk around the block? If a neighbor on the porch wants to talk, can I talk from 15 feet away for 5 minutes, or must I shake my head and keep walking? Can I go to the grocery store for fresh food or should I wait until we are scrapping the bottom of the bean barrel? Can I support my local restaurants? Can I order from Amazon? Some people in this thread–CarnalK most recently–give very firm “yes” and “no” answers to those things, but they don’t want to talk about reasons, they don’t want to explain their logic, which makes it useless to me. How I can derive the principles by which I am going to live my life these next few months if conversation gets shut down, if everyone who asks if something crosses the line to unsafe is always told “don’t risk it. Take no risks”.
I don’t understand. Did I do anything today that New Zealanders are being advised not to do? It seems like I’m still adhering to NZ guidance – I went to the grocery store, I briefly talked to a neighbor at a safe distance, I went on a walk in my neighborhood. You just said all of those things are allowed. I’m already limiting how much I do any of those things. A lot. We used to go to 3 different grocery stores, maybe 5 trips a week. Now it’s one. We used to hang out with friends a lot, now we’re barely communicating. But you’re still acting like I’m doing something drastically different than what you’re being advised to do in New Zealand. Am I misunderstanding you?
…yes.
Christ, this is exhausting.
Like I said, I think the point of view being advanced here is that it is the socially responsible thing to do to not go outdoors or interact in person with others unless absolutely necessary. You can agree or disagree with that as you wish.
There, done!
…and Stranger responded by saying “I’m sorry if anyone feels personally attacked because that is absolutely not my intention”. Surely that should have been the end of it?
That’s a question you need to be directing at CarnalK: not at me. I can’t answer for them. All I’m doing is responding directly to posts that you have directed at me.
“Safely” is relative. It would probably be safe to take him for a walk around the block. It would be safer to take him for a walk around the backyard, if you have one.
It would be best that your neighbour didn’t stand on your porch. That is penetrating your bubble. The advice I cited states that it would probably be okay to talk to your neighbour for a couple of minutes 2 metres away, no longer. But it would probably be better to yell out “I’ll give you a call!” then go inside and ring them.
You should shop as you normally do, following the best practice as recommended by your local authorities.
In New Zealand every single local restaurant is closed. I would seek guidance from your local authorities on this one and lacking guidance I would personally choose not to buy from them until after this crisis is over. I would support buying giftcards and making donations if they are running gofundme’s though.
In New Zealand all businesses are closed: including mail order businesses. I would seek advice from your local authorities but in the absence of advice I would probably not order from Amazon.
People are expressing their opinions here. None of us are experts in the appropriate fields, especially me. I’m a photographer. I’m basing everything I’ve said in this thread on the expert advice that I’ve cited in this thread. I certainly can’t explain all the “logic” behind the opinions I’ve expressed because all I’m doing is echoing what I’ve read the experts have suggested. There is only so much utility that you can get from a message board thread like this. Take it for what it is.
Nobody is shutting this conversation down. But **nobody **can evaluate what level of risk is acceptable to you. Only **you **can do that. And I don’t want to be responsible for how you choose to derive the principles on how you are going to live your life for the next few months.
I appreciate how scary this all is. But we aren’t going to able to provide you with a playbook on “how you are going to get through this.” I will continue to provide links to things that I think will be helpful. I will do whatever I can to help you and others get through this. I know I’m lucky, I’m fortunate, I’m privileged to be living where I am. But there are limits to what we are able to do.
…it was a binary question 
But seriously: I bolded the bit I was responding too. The Spinoff really isn’t being contradictory. The calculus **isn’t **binary. The actions you did are all acceptable actions. But it would be less risky (to both yourself and to others) if you chose not to do them.
And if you knew that if you had Corvid-19 then you wouldn’t have done these things, then probably not doing those things would have been a better thing to do. But I’m not really in the position to make judgement here.
I… don’t believe you. You just said, “You should shop as you normally do, following the best practice as recommended by your local authorities.” Are you saying that people who know they’re infected/carriers should continue to shop as they normally do?
I don’t think you really think that’s something people should do. Therefore there are exceptions to this “act like you already have it” rule of thumb. “Act like you already have it, but if you really already have it act differently in these specific ways” doesn’t roll of the tongue, but that’s what we’re all doing at the end of the day.
eta: And that’s the specific contradiction I’m talking about.
…that’s mighty pleasant of you.
If you don’t shop, and if you don’t have groceries in the house, you will eventually die. The advice from the government is to shop as you normally would. The supermarkets are doing their best to provide as risk free as possible. People have to queue a certain distance apart. Only a certain amount of people allowed in the supermarket at a time. Only one person per shopping cart. **They **are assuming that everyone is infected.
Well you would be wrong then. Absolutely completely wrong. Its the message literally given out by our Prime Minister. Its how I’m behaving right now. We’ve only been out of the house once in the last five days and that was to do a grocery pick up and we did everything as per the guidance provided by the local authorities. All three of the people in our bubble are immunocompromised. I won’t do anything to put them at needless risk if I can.
What are those exceptions? The procedures they have set up at the local supermarket assumes everybody that is going shopping is infected. You do understand that, don’t you?
It isn’t what **I’m **doing. But you do you.
Its not a contradiction.
If I actually had it, if I thought there was any evidence I might, I wouldn’t shop as I normally do, hoping that the precautions the store took were enough. I would eat down my staples until they were gone, for one thing: I wouldn’t go out until the beans and rice and flour were all gone. Or I would have a friend deliver my groceries. Or I would sit in the car and shout at strangers to bring me food. Under no circumstances would I walk into a grocery store. I think anyone would do those things. So right now, I am not behaving as if I have it. I am behaving as if I may well have it, and I need to take precautions.