I’m sorry. I assumed you didn’t want to debate, since you have yet to provide any evidence that is worth a poop.
Please provide some peer reviewed evidence that your mystic healing lightning really works.
Thanks.
rich2600, why do you insist on ignoring requests that disprove your stance, and launching constant ad hominem attacks on their authors?
Because if you are going to state that:
and then ignore the point made by several other posters (Musicat, Jackmanii, Vinyl Turnip), you are avoiding contributing to the debate. Rather than weaken your position by trying to sidestep the issue and attack the poster, why not try to validate your stance by providing some examples of articles published by CAM journals that rejected a potential alternative medicine/therapy? If you could give us an example, it would not “hurt there [sic] case”, but strengthen it.
[QUOTE=chaoticbear]
rich2600, why do you insist on ignoring requests that disprove your stance, and launching constant ad hominem attacks on their authors?
[/QUOTE]
I am acknowledging requests that are valid.
[QUOTE=chaoticbear]
Because if you are going to state that…
and then ignore the point made by several other posters (Musicat, Jackmanii, Vinyl Turnip), you are avoiding contributing to the debate. Rather than weaken your position by trying to sidestep the issue and attack the poster, why not try to validate your stance by providing some examples of articles published by CAM journals that rejected a potential alternative medicine/therapy? If you could give us an example, it would not “hurt there [sic] case”, but strengthen it.
[/QUOTE]
As for Vinyl Turnip, please view the following:
[QUOTE=rich2600]
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
His request is not without merit. If CAM has any serious level of scientific rigor, there should be examples of tests that produced negative or inconclusive results. “Everyone gets a trophy” is bad enough when applied to grammar school T-ballers; it has no place whatsoever in science.
[/QUOTE]
That does not void the direct point. If you are trying to provide data to show the invalidity of CAM and reiki. Do it yourself. Why would lawyers on purpose bring data to hurt there case??
[/QUOTE]
For your second representation of your fallen predecessors(Musicat & Jackmanii) - as you are asking the same exact question. Please review my answer previously posted on this thread. - 129
Thank you.
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I’m sorry. I assumed you didn’t want to debate, since you have yet to provide any evidence that is worth a poop.
Please provide some peer reviewed evidence that your mystic healing lightning really works.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, although you are interested in “my” mystic healing lightning, it is not part of this thread, nor part of this discussion. Where did I say I have mystic healing lightning before?
IF you are a movie buff.
Try Powder
Though he dies from the lightning at the end…sooo not reaaally healing…it might fit that taste for mystic healing lightning…
Watch it and let me know.
That’s OK, Reiki can cure that. Or I can go to Brazil and be treated there with medical science the FDA is hiding.
As you have now accepted your own words as contradiction. Have fun and enjoy the trip.
I have no idea what this means.
I also don’t understand your statement about “lawyers bringing evidence to hurt their case.” Lawyers are paid to advocate on behalf of their clients and to win the case for their side regardless of what the actual facts may be. Is that really the analogy you want to use to defend the impartiality of CAM researchers?
You were asked for an example of a CAM study with a negative result. You actually provided one, sort of. (Linking directly to it, without all the bewildering commentary, would’ve saved everyone a lot of time.)
It’s unlikely there have been anything like eight years of testing.
Probably because the manufacturer asked for approval in other countries and not the U.S. You are still implying the FDA is preventing the sale of these products, and there is no evidence that’s the case. If the company wants the products approved, they have to contact the FDA, make an application, and run studies. We don’t know if they have done any of that. We don’t know if the company has done any testing, if those tests were successful, or if any studies are in progress.
I wouldn’t make that argument. From what I know, the regulatory systems in the U.S. and Europe are broadly similar.
Treatments for diabetes and obesity are not on the back burner. As for why these specific things aren’t on the market, it’s difficult to answer, but it appears the company has not tried to get them approved here. It’s not because the FDA isn’t doing anything.
Reiki doesn’t do anything. It might make someone feel a little better or not, but it won’t kill them. A poorly designed surgical device can kill.
You did not actually acknowledge their requests, you simply avoided trying altogether and then claimed ignorance about the issue.
Since this one was originally directed at me, I feel compelled to respond that my “predecessors” are not fallen; their points were avoided but still stand.
At this point, there are several other similar surgical devices and interventions that are similar to the ones you mentioned, which have been discussed upthread, which all have similar effectiveness rates. Seeking approval for their product in an already saturated niche market may not be cost-effective for them.
Reiki is able to gain foothold because treatment is practically free, (or for all I know, reiki practitioners are donating time), and is probably more sustained contact than most people have at once in a non-ICU setting in a hospital. And, as Marley23 mentioned, what’s the worst that could happen?
Beyond the fact that this is false, given the extensive research and attention to new and improved therapy for diabetes and obesity, let’s have a look at what reiki offers for these conditions:
(crickets)
Oh, but there are “reiki experts” who tell us that indeed, you can “heal” diabetes using reiki.
*"By consistently using reiki healing on the energy chakras 1 to 3, associated with diabetes you can alleviate and dispel the symptoms. Think of your chakras as a spinning plate on a stick throwing out powerful energy and we need to keep them balanced so they don’t fall off.
First Chakra - located just under the tailbone
Second Chakra - sits between the pelvic bones at the base of the spine
Third Chakra - behind your navel"*
And the good thing according to this “expert” is that even if you can’t afford to pay a reiki practitioner for treatments, you can take a course and presto! start applying those healing energies on yourself.
So, rich2600, if you can stop denouncing other posters and proclaiming victory for just a moment, what’s your opinion of fellow reiki practitioners/experts who say they can heal diabetes, cancer and other life-threatening ailments? Are they correct, or should reikists confine their efforts to attempting to relieve stress and pain symptoms while leaving management of serious acute and chronic disorders to evidence-based health care providers?
By the way, it just struck me that Chakra Khan would be a neat name for a reiki practitioner. Unfortunately, it turns out that the name is already in use by at least a couple of businesses offering reiki, including this one. Note the varying modalities offered, a fine example of crank magnetism in action. I am intrigued, though, by the massage therapist who also offers “Western pathologies”, particularly as I myself am a Western pathologist. What are “Western pathologies”? Do you get a bonus Krispy Kreme doughnut with every massage?
I would note that instead of responding with information about an actual study you instead vomit out this drivel.
You believe in a childish fantasy. There is no actual effect to Reiki. There are no mystic energies and you are simply a dupe who thinks magic is real.
You have thus far provided no citations from reputable studies to support your claim that magic healing can be transmitted via hands. If someone made a claim that their hair dryer could talk to the dead, but provided no information to back that up, would you accept it without evidence?
Because evidently you believe whatever you want to, without regard to whether it is true or not.
I think that’s probably the case. The Midband thing is approved in only a couple of countries (most of them in Europe) even though there is a process that could get it approved for the entire European Union at once. It’s unlikely this is the miracle therapy rich2600 thinks it is.
I’ll never understand the motivation of people who go on this message board that is dedicated to fighting ignorance and then post the most absurd drivel. I can see how something like acupuncture could possibly have an effect by stimulating nerves or something, but just a cursory glance at Reiki or Homeopathy shows that they are complete nonsense.
I’ll restate my question from above: if you believe in Reiki, what sort of thing won’t you believe? How ridiculous does something have to get before you can look at it and see that it is nonsense?
For your viewing pleasure, a bit of background about rich2600’s third eye. If he wasn’t so tired, he could probably heal us all.
He believes he’s seen it work, and it can be difficult to trust science and testing above your own experience.
This comment on the site is priceless:
The bold is mine.
IF, you, Musicat and Chaoticbear had any motivation behind your own declarations, you would’ve found this and brought it to light as your own information. Which means you have wasted the time of this thread.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
It’s unlikely there have been anything like eight years of testing.
Probably because the manufacturer asked for approval in other countries and not the U.S. You are still implying the FDA is preventing the sale of these products, and there is no evidence that’s the case. If the company wants the products approved, they have to contact the FDA, make an application, and run studies. We don’t know if they have done any of that. We don’t know if the company has done any testing, if those tests were successful, or if any studies are in progress.
I wouldn’t make that argument. From what I know, the regulatory systems in the U.S. and Europe are broadly similar.
Treatments for diabetes and obesity are not on the back burner. As for why these specific things aren’t on the market, it’s difficult to answer, but it appears the company has not tried to get them approved here. It’s not because the FDA isn’t doing anything.
Reiki doesn’t do anything. It might make someone feel a little better or not, but it won’t kill them. A poorly designed surgical device can kill.
[/QUOTE]
If a device has been on the international market for 8 years, and had several “kills”. Why would it still be then on the market?
Also since you are clarifying for the FDA, I do have another question. What are the standards of study transferrals between international countries?
And finally, could you find me an international product that has been accepted within 3 years of its inception into the international market?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
I think that’s probably the case. The Midband thing is approved in only a couple of countries (most of them in Europe) even though there is a process that could get it approved for the entire European Union at once. It’s unlikely this is the miracle therapy rich2600 thinks it is.
[/QUOTE]
When have I claimed it’s a miracle therapy? I said it would help.
Also, how is a surgical device a miracle therapy?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
He believes he’s seen it work, and it can be difficult to trust science and testing above your own experience.
[/QUOTE]
I will not deny this. Thank you Marley23.
[QUOTE=Chaoticbear]
You did not actually acknowledge their requests, you simply avoided trying altogether and then claimed ignorance about the issue.
[/QUOTE]
Since repetition is what you need for acceptance. I did not acknowledge them because they have lost their standing. Just as your are doing now by stating the same information a third time.
[QUOTE=Chaoticbear]
Since this one was originally directed at me, I feel compelled to respond that my “predecessors” are not fallen; their points were avoided but still stand.
[/QUOTE]
You acknowledging a floating piece of plastic in the wind as a grocery bag does not make it so. Musicat has contradicted himself. Jack cannot back his own words. I will not respond to their compliments because of it.
[QUOTE=Chaoticbear]
At this point, there are several other similar surgical devices and interventions that are similar to the ones you mentioned, which have been discussed upthread, which all have similar effectiveness rates. Seeking approval for their product in an already saturated niche market may not be cost-effective for them.
Reiki is able to gain foothold because treatment is practically free, (or for all I know, reiki practitioners are donating time), and is probably more sustained contact than most people have at once in a non-ICU setting in a hospital. And, as Marley23 mentioned, what’s the worst that could happen?
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for getting back on point. The point is not about Reiki’s effectiveness, it is about how there are devices available outside of America, but are not being offered. I am claiming it is simply – taking way to damn long.
Above I requested that Marley23 to provide documents. As I have been honest and consistent on my declarations. And also because you seem to not be able to let this “request” go.
Chaoticbear: Please support your own words by providing me with the several other surgical devices and “interventions” that are similar to the ones I mentioned.
If you say no, you are supporting my denial of your – yes, fallen predecessors – requests.
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I would note that instead of responding with information about an actual study you instead vomit out this drivel.
You believe in a childish fantasy. There is no actual effect to Reiki. There are no mystic energies and you are simply a dupe who thinks magic is real.
You have thus far provided no citations from reputable studies to support your claim that magic healing can be transmitted via hands. If someone made a claim that their hair dryer could talk to the dead, but provided no information to back that up, would you accept it without evidence?
Because evidently you believe whatever you want to, without regard to whether it is true or not.
[/QUOTE]
This is also another post I’ve been waiting for. The “you were sarcastic to my request when it was purely sarcastic” — :(
As far as me “vomitting out this drivel”…Lobohan, You have provided now 3 statements which were rhetorical and sarcastic. Harry potters at the movie theatre if you are stuck on wizards.
If I AM vomitting out this drivel. My god I am up to the knees in drivel.
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
You have thus far provided no citations from reputable studies to support your claim that magic healing can be transmitted via hands. If someone made a claim that their hair dryer could talk to the dead, but provided no information to back that up, would you accept it without evidence?
[/QUOTE]
Have you actually read the thread?
You have neither claimed what exactly is reputable in your opinion, or what you will accept as verified scientific proof. Just don’t provide pictures of your bathroom wall writings which insult other oncomers.
So I’ll repeat as I have said before, if you want to discuss reiki and it’s validity, go for it. I have provided a crap load of articles which you are saying I have provided none. You have provided nothing, nor stated what you accept.
This debate has began to turn into a Middle-school sarcastic-fest. I don’t mind this, infact it’s fun to see you guys scurry around after your own statements were translated to real statements rather than sarcastic statements, and then complain about. It is comical.
A perfect example:
[QUOTE=DMC]
For your viewing pleasure, a bit of background about rich2600’s third eye. If he wasn’t so tired, he could probably heal us all.
[/QUOTE]
Everybody point and laugh, as I believe something you do not.
And Shu1bu1’s contributions to this immaturity:
I could really care less.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Now that I have read the whole thread, I stand by what I wrote here. People have made sarcastic comments about the claims and the evidence you’ve posted and about your arguing style, but you have not in any way been defamed and no board rules were broken. Do not make any further comments that insult or taunt other posters.
[/QUOTE]
Defamation = DMC
“I would note that instead of responding with information about an actual study you instead vomit out this drivel.” Direct Insult = Lobohan
[Quote=Musicat]
So you can’t give us an example. I win.
[Quote=rich2600]
Now you have proved that all you are doing is trying to do is get an emotional reaction out of me. This is a direct and applicable form of taunting.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Taunting = Musicat
If I am going to be on a forum section which allows all of the following negative conservation aspects that they have restricted from me.
Then this is not a debate area, ironic as it is especially labelled “Religion” as a subtext.
This is a killing zone for all of the members beliefs that they want to discuss.
Marley23, explain to me the difference so that I can understand your rational thinking on this matter. I do respect you as a contributor, thank you for your comments thus far, and I look forward to your reply.
If I am handling children, atleast let me know so I can point to the hooked on phonix reference.
I won’t accept testimonials from gullible, ignorant people. I will accept properly peer-reviewed scientific studies.
You don’t have any of those because you’re in love with the childish notion that people can wish sickness away. The burden of proof is on you, since you’re the one asserting that people can use magic powers to zap away sickness.
Once more: Testimonials from ignorant gullible people aren’t evidence. Ignorant gullible people believe all sorts of stupid bullshit because they want to.
Now that you have claimed all of the scientists I have cited are ignorant and gullible. Prove it. Lobohan, please investigate each author I have cited and all of the articles I have attached To show that they are gullible and ignorant in your opinion.
**rich2600 ** - You have fallen into a trap. Stop trying to answer in kind, you’ll just lose because you don’t have facts or reason on your side. That doesn’t make you wrong, but you don’t have the basis to defend your position in this environment. No matter how strong your beliefs are, they will always be insufficient as proof in an argument of reason. That’s because there are clearly identifiable cases of strong belief in things that turned out not to exist. For a skeptic like me, even accepted scientific evidence is insufficient in many areas. The basis of your beliefs are your own experiences, and research that is inconclusive, and easily attacked for it’s methodology. The research part is not unique to Reiki or even alternative medicine. There is an extraordinary amount of garbage medical research ongoing. If you hypothesize a correlation, you can get a grant to study it, and produce results that seem to support your hypothesis, without scientific rigor actually applied.
Until you can demonstrate a cause and effect mechanism that is observable, you have no science.
I understand that you want something you believe in to be accepted. But acceptance as alternative medicine is a very low standard that will not impress anyone who is familiar with that standard.
Now you could start a belief based thread. If your thread is based on a discussion of beliefs, interjection of skeptics about the scientific basis are not so well tolerated. But if you insist that their is some kind of evidence or proof that has a basis in science, you are just going to face ridicule.
And you are not dealing with children either. Children are generally more mature and polite than the average doper.
If you have facts, present them and stick to them.
Hm how odd that I have never been able to heal my own diabetes, nor my heart condition, and I get used as a training dummy for my friends classes and they have never managed to heal me of anything [I am a sucker for helping my friends out, but it is nothing if not relaxing, I can do it laying down :D]