Sweet jumping jebus, epeen pissing contest much?
How about this, I am a trained reiki practiotioner and I say it is total and utter placebo, there is NOTHING going on. NOTHING. Let me repeat that a third time NOTHING
It is pure placebo action. I can do it the official proper way, and turn around a week later and do none of the official preparations and get the exact same result from the same person plunked down in front of me. How much plainer would you like me to say it?
Have I claimed that science does not measure my “woo”? 
I provided quite a few links for the science of measurement within the reiki realm of testing. Although it is comical to visualize a furrow browed Jackmannii being hand held through a collection of documents that do not meet your specifications of what and what is not acceptable for your scientific acceptance of it’s existence. It is not in my resume.
I didn’t know that presumptions were applicable in this discussion as that the members on this site have only showed me that the current medical establishment does not accept it’s validity. But yet, hospitals, people, and studies all indicate that it is being used, is being studied, and is being accepted.
Now that presumptions are applicable, you have failed to follow through with your request of documents that you would read and then debate. By now, I have read them all. and finally you have failed to provide an alternative medical diagnosis of reiki being unsuccessful in the majority sense.
I did not want to go this route, but is that what it takes, declaration of failure for you to actually read what you requested?
I am also a reiki practitioner and I have had multiple clients that do have something going on as well as myself.
I can agree that it can seem to have placebo effects, but I have to disagree that it has nothing going on, as the alternative medical studies have shown that it does provide results.
Betcha can’t name one.
You’re darn tootin’. Any hospital that offers medical treatment rooted in superstition from the Middle Ages isn’t going to get much of my dollar. Do they offer leeches and bleeding along with heart operations, too?
Hey, leeches can actually be useful in a medical setting, especially for reattaching body parts with mostly capillary blood flow.
Well, sure. I even have a pet leech I keep on a leash just for that purpose. You never know when you need one.
I call him “Sucky.”
Under YOUR philosophy, anything that is not accepted by the medical association is considered alternative medicine…
You do understand how easy you’ve made this right?..No?
Just sort the drugs by FDA Approval by month. There’s your “Names”
So which one(s) were previously superstitious cures that became proven medical science? Homeopathy? Bach Flower Remedies? Acupuncture? Reiki? Magnetic therapy? Mesmerism? Orgone energy? Phrenology? Holistic medicine? Astrotherapy? Ayurvedic medicine? Bioharmonics? Chelation?
Sorry, after your back peddle expedition and second contradiction marathon, I don’t feel inclined to respond to that inquiry.
Oh and if I go further, it’ll be another pissing match, or, I’ll be distracting from the current topic at hand.
Please focus.
Chelation does have medical applications - in removing heavy metals from the body after an exposure to certain hazardous materials. Any use other than that is woo.
rich2600, you seem to be equating “not proven” with “alternative”.
While all alternative treatments are indeed not proven to work by definition, the reverse is not necessarily true. If a new drug is discovered or invented, it does not become alternative until tests show it works.
So your list of newly approved drugs has no relevance. AFAIK, there is no drug on that list that was once called alternative, was tested and found to be otherwise.
…and alternative medicine that has been proven to work is called…medicine.
The “healing energies” seem to especially foster evasion. I’m still waiting to see what randomized, double blind study has demonstrated reiki’s efficacy, but despite continuing to assure us that “alternative medical studies” show that it “provides results”, rich2600 is unable to describe one of them.
Really Guys? This is all you have left for me?
Musicat, I provided you an exit, I provided you an opportunity to tip your hat and move along, but you came in for one last contradiction?
You asked for alternative medicines that were accepted by the medical association, and became real medicines, so I provided them under YOUR specifications, under YOUR own words, and under YOUR own designation of alternative medicine.
You have now slapped down a 3rd contradiction, by retracting your own words - AGAIN. You have absolutely rung out your validity within this discussion. Inconsistency must be the name of your game.
Oh…you don’t know all of the contradictions?
Let me list them for you.
1: You quote and comment on an article which I posted. Then a few posts later, you say it has no weight within your acceptance of science. If it had no weight within your realm of science. You would not have referenced them in the first place. This is inconsistent, and a contradiction.
2: You state your personal definition for alternative medicine, when I test your definition, you then state “no no no no no…that’s not what i meant”. This is inconsistent, and a contradiction.
3: You then come back around and REVISE your personal definition of alternative medicine. This tipped the barrel of insconsistency and contradiction.
You have lost your validity. You have lost your standing. And anymore said in this discussion would ultimately be weightless as you have not provided strength in your opinions.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
…and alternative medicine that has been proven to work is called…medicine.
The “healing energies” seem to especially foster evasion. I’m still waiting to see what randomized, double blind study has demonstrated reiki’s efficacy, but despite continuing to assure us that “alternative medical studies” show that it “provides results”, rich2600 is unable to describe one of them.
[/QUOTE]
Foster evasion. I find this again overwhelmingly ironic from the man that refuses to read the documents he requested. How can I make this more clear. And before you use the term “You call us…” one more time - Jackmannii, I’ll make this specific.
YOU have requested documents to support my theories.
YOU had the puffed out chest and statement of “Bring 'em on!”. I was excited upon his act of testosterone, only to find you would be immediately deflated.
YOU dance around evasion repetitively, yet you are being the perfect representation of pot and kettle.
YOU have not provided any supporting evidence that supports your claim that alternative studies nullify reiki.
YOU have stated that I am not providing what you need for acceptance.
I have been excessively flexible working around what you want to declare as unacceptable and acceptable medicine. I’ve been flexible on reiki from the beginning. But again. I am not going to hand hold YOU through this debate.
Is this it? From what I have seen it is, you cling onto small facts desperately trying to make points, and I either find directed Contradictions, or evasion in it’s purest form. Do I need to say it any clearer.
Masicat. Your opinions or empty opinions within this discussion may have had some validity. BUT when you yourself break and revise those opinions MID-DISCUSSION. You show that your opinions have no strength, and therefore, why should any other skeptic have strength within those opinions.
They didn’t have white out for the declaration of independance.
Jackmannii. Dude, you have got a funny style of slapping down the preconcieved judgements. But ultimately what you have displayed is a repetitive act of defamation of character towards myself and others. You approached this conversation with narcissism first and civility second. This unnecessary act of aggression has only shown that you cannot handle a true debate, cannot handle a discussion where you actually HAVE to do work, and finally, you cannot handle supporting your own claims.
Lots of flailing, but still no convincing study presented for discussion.
Negative energy fields must be blocking the Truth. 
Wow, an evasive comment followed by a sarcastic statement. Thank you for justifying my representation of you.
Let me see if I can provide a summary for those keeping score at home:
Jackmannii requested a double-blind confirmation of efficacy from a real medical journal. So far, none has been presented.
Musicat wanted an example of something that used to be an “alternative medicine” and was now considered just “medicine.” I agree that an experimental drug does not count as “alternative medicine”, being part of a double-blind, placebo-controlled (and double-dummy!) drug trial myself.
rich2600 avoided both of those simple requests and provided unrelated links and then complained that no one took them seriously.
There we go, please continue. :
:
I read through your links, and even those studies do not make claims that the observed positive results of Reiki necessarily derive from anything other than placebo effect— which leaves me more inclined to trust their methodology, but unfortunately does not support the points you think you’re making.
As just one example, the stated purpose of this study was to “assess the efficacy of Reiki therapy to alleviate pain and improve mobility and quality of life in subjects with type 2 diabetes and PDN.”
The result:
So, some improvement was seen with Reiki, but no more than with “mimic Reiki.” If fake Reiki works equally as well as “real” Reiki, it doesn’t support your claim that there’s “something going on” beyond placebo.
Hats off to you, seriously. I can’t even read through his posts. It’s like they’ve been run through babelfish.
Hi Vinyl Turnip. Thank you so much for joining the conversation, reading the links I provided and adding a good example of comparison.
There are three studies I want to bring to light which are included in my links:
Baldwin, A.L., Wagers, C. and Schwartz, G.E. Reiki improves heart rate homeostasis in laboratory rats. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 14 (4): 417-422, 2008.
Baldwin, A.L., Wagers, C. and Schwartz, G.E. Reiki improves heart rate homeostasis in laboratory rats. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 14 (4): 417-422, 2008.
For this one, I have to include the testing method, as it effects the interpretation of the results.
Witte, D., Dundes, L. Harnessing Life Energy or Wishful Thinking? Reiki, Placebo Reiki, Meditation, and Music. Alternative and Complementary Therapies, 7(5): 304-309, 2001.
The bold is mine.
What is frustrating I have to admit, is that when it comes to human studies, they limit the amount of sham Reiki applied to the individuals. So we cannot recieve a better evaluation of results in other tests. But still, in these three cases, Reiki did provide results in comparison to placebo Reiki.
Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to your reply.
I know nothing about Reiki, but I do know that the power of positive thinking has been shown to be very effective in treating people over the ages. I have seen it work first-hand.
Will it cure all ills? Of course not.
But will it help? Yes - simply by believing you have some control over your body and health improves your chances for other procedures/medicines to be effective.
I am very dubious of humbug quacks who try to sell snake oil, but if someone truly believes in a process that they think helps them (and is not being ripped off financially to do so), then I say go for it!
I think every medical professional would agree that odds of success for a patient increase if the patient has a positive attitude and the belief that they can get better.