I think everyone will accept these two assumptions:
Anyone starting a game is playing it.
Anyone proposing a rule is voting in favor of it.
So Zev started a game (and started the whole world laughing). At that point he was the only player. He proposed a rule on admitted other players and by doing so, passed it unanimously. So Rule 301 is now in effect and anyone who posts in this thread asking to be a player is in the game. Mikie was the first to do, so now we await his proposed rule change and the opportunity for all of us to vote on it.
Stand back, people, I read legal decisions for fun.
I don’t accept those assumptions. But it doesn’t matter anyway. zev said that he started without enough pre-planning. I took this to mean he was starting over. Thus the game that we are currently playing started Sunday night at midnight, so Rule 301 that you’re talking about was based on a Proposal that occurred before the game started, and in fact isn’t a Proposal in this game at all.
If you disagree with me, your recourse is to invoke Judgment. The only possible candidates for Judge would be me or zev, depending on if we go by my interpretation or yours. Although I can’t be certain about it, I think that zev will side with me, based on the fact that he maintains the player list that says it’s BraheSilver’s turn.
But I like being able to vote against my own proposals. If nothing else, then when you vote against your own proposal and it passes, you get 10 points. At the same time, I do want to see the rules changed; that’s what the game’s all about.
Yes, but per Rule 206 the proposer of a losing proposal loses 10 points. I don’t know what someone would stand to gain right now from gaining nothing, but I can conceive of certain Machivellian plots that could make this a benificial outcome, so I’m nipping it in the bud for the sake of common sense.
As I pointed out, Zev was the only player actually eligible to vote for his proposed rule, so all our our other votes were moot. But even if they hadn’t been, my vote of “no” didn’t end the turn. The rules state that “every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes” and “parts of turns may not be omitted”. So the turn ain’t over until everyone gets a vote. Admittedly my no would have prevented a unanimous vote of approval, but it appeared the majority were voting in favor and Rule 301 would have passed in two turns by a simple majority.
But you wouldn’t gain nothing! If you make a proposal, and you vote against it, but the majority of the other players vote for it, then you get 10 points for voting against it (204), plus 15+ points for it passing (202)!
(You won’t be able to do this until Rule 203 is gone, but that’s likely to happen.)
That is an assumption, or at least an extrapolation. Anyway, he said I had the first turn, so starting anew is the only reasonable explanation of what he was saying.
Indeed, that’s what would happen if it passes. If it fails, you’d get +10 for voting against a losing proposal and -10 for having proposed a losing proposal. This is what I’m proposing against.
[Strong Bad]I… But I… The… It was my intention to…
Oh, crap.[/SB]
My plotting works in ways you can’t fathom and I can’t be bothered to explain. I leave my Proposal as is (as if I could change it anyway). Yeah, that’s it.
Do we want to setup a maillist? I have a mailserver and domainname available.
I can forsee someone voting to up the points for voting against a losing argument or lowering the points for proposing a rule which doesn’t pass. Therefore I vote for 302.
(1) Yes, we started over. So, the “old” Rule 301 is moot.
(2) The new Proposition 301 failed.
(3) It’s BraheSilver’s turn and he (she?) proposed Prop 302 which we are voting on.
The point of Nomic is that there are NO assumptions.
Take a good look at Rule 101. All normal games assume that players must obey the rules. Nomic explicitly contains a rule that players must obey the rules. This initially suggests that if R101 is repealed, obeying the rules is no longer mandatory.
I say “suggests” because the Rules say only what the players decide the Rules say. In Agora, someone called for Judgment on this very point about R101, and in that game the decision was that the players must obey the rules even if R101 were to be repealed. But the decisions of Agora do not apply to Straight Dope Nomic…
So the main lesson here is that if you’re unsure about something, call for Judgment and establish a precedent.
BraheSilver: A popular sport in Agora is to conceive of certain Machiavellian plots and run a scam through the game. Last year I was part of a scam that resulted in the adopting of a rule that took precedence over all other rules in the game, including the aforementioned R101.
iampunha: You got it in one. At least until the early procedural rules have been put in place, and people start on rules of substance (ways to win and things to do along the way).
If nothing else, then when you vote against your own proposal and it passes, you get 10 points. At the same time, I do want to see the rules changed; that’s what the game’s all about.
At least until the early procedural rules have been put in place, and people start on rules of substance (ways to win and things to do along the way).