Anyone sick of seeing peace protesters in NYC?

Great Debates
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Alright. Let’s do this again.

  1. Why shouldn’t I voice my opinion? I find it funny that all the people that scoff so dirisively at “PC” are now telling us that we shouldn’t speak because it is “divisive”. Isn;t it cute how you can point your finger and yell “Divisive” at people, as if that is not divisive in and of itself! As if suddenly all of our critical thinking skills should be abandon because examining a situation and forming an opinion about somehow assauly “unity”. I can love, support, believe in and be unified in sorrow and hope with the United States and still think that alternatives to military action ought to be considered.

  2. Many facets to this one. First off, many pro-military people don’t have a real plan of action either. “Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out” doesn’t count as a plan. Neither does “We must seek retaliation” or “justice must be served”. Any military action that we are able to take is not going to be a simple operation. It isn’t like other wars where there is infrastructure out in the open for us to bomb. The people involved in this are scattered over the world…not standing in one place wearing nice uniforms. I ask of military people, what are we going to attack? What do we hope to get out of said attack? How will bombing barrack in Afghanistan stop terrorists operating out of Germany? There are no easy answers. So don’t get all smug and say you have them.

And yes, there are other forms of action besides military force. Pascifism is not another word for inaction. For example, in the last month, did you hit anyone? But you still did stuff, right? You still acted…you didn’t just sit there.

Bush is recognizing that humanitarian aid, propaganda, world opinion and other non-violent factors are very important. This isn’t a war that we could win by brute force even if we wanted to. It is like saying that we should use brute force to take down the mafia…it just isn’t the way it works. We believe that more of these avenues should be used, and we all have different ideas about doing them. I for example, think that terrorists should be tried in an International court. This will lead to demoralization (the whole world is against us!), less sympathy (see, nobody likes those freaks) and take away the potential to say “See! Look what the Great Satan did to us!”

And yes, I truely believe that killing other humans is supremely wrong. No, I am not saying this for attention. It is something I have believed for almost all of my life. I know there are a lot of kids there going off about colonialism and oil and racism. Some of them are on to something. Some of them are complete crackpots. Both sides have complete crackpots, at least our complete crackpots don’t go around killing innocent American citizens who look vaguely Arab.

  1. This is the one that I really don’t get. A bunch of people die, and now it is insulting to state that we shouldn’t go around making more people die? You know…there might have been some gasp pacifist who died that are insulted by what we are doing! Also, see my rebuttal to one. I will not let you use “respect for the victems” as an excuse to order me not to use my critical thinking skills. That would be an insult to America.

  2. Actually, I doubt that footage of peace rallys would ever be shown as propaganda. You see, the other side wants us to look like the fanatics. They want us to look like a great evil force that is foaming at the mouth calling for Muslim blood. Building up stereotypes involves making people believe that a given group of people are all the same. Showing the ways in which America agrees and disagrees with itself would shatter that. It might even lead to sympathy on their side.

About treason, speaking one’s mind is what America is about in the first place. If anything, it is you who is being treasonous by stateing that we should give us our rights to free speach and peaceful assembly. Stateing in a public way that one supports non-violent actions is not treason. If the peace activists started sabotageing things or something, that might be treasonous, but not simply protesting.

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Preview! A novel idea!

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As for peace protesters not saying what we should do instead, here’s a sample of what various people pushing for peace have said on other message boards I’ve read (which probably doesn’t reflect on the group in general, but still):

  • Diplomacy. Talk to Afghanistan, and put more pressure on them through Pakistan (who’ve already said they’re convinced by the evidence the US has given them) and other Islamic countries. Get as close to a worldwide shunning as you can going.

  • Police action rather than military action. Send in Special Forces to go in and find bin Laden. After all, Green Berets don’t normally use air strikes that could go awry… (Related suggestion: assassination, although pacifists would probably not suggest this.)

  • Address (what some see as) the root cause of the terrorism: stop supporting Israel, pull completely out of the Middle East, start being nice to the Third World (whatever that means), and mind our own damn business. (Not that I agree with this at all; even if I thought it would help, it’s way too late now.)

  • Nothing. Carry on as usual, except be more vigilant. Reacting, the argument goes, would be a victory for the terrorists. Usually suggested in combination with the point above.

Now, you may not think these are viable, and again these may not be the mainstream suggestions, but things ARE being suggested, from what I’ve seen.

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So when should they voice their opinion? How about when it is most convenient to everyone.

The Taliban do not need footage of peace protesters for propaganda. They have other sources to use as propaganda.

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It is kind of ironic to see people calling for peace in a city that’s been attacked, but oddly, it’s comforting. Because to me it means normalcy. Think of the stages of grieving … especially anger, and denial, and bargaining.

I think that both the protesters, and at the other extreme, the people flying flags from every possible orifice, are reacting on an equal level emotionally … it’s just a visceral gut response – “Must take action! Can’t sit still!” – and that’s necessary for healing. Everybody needs to heal in their own way … some are choosing to carry candles at vigils, some are choosing to renew/discover their patriotism, some are choosing to volunteer any services they can, some are choosing to call for peace even if they can’t explain exactly why they want peace, some are calling for war even if they can’t explain exactly what kind of war they want. And any of the zillion other responses possible

The people you see carrying a war protest sign today, you are just as likely to see making yellow ribbons to support our troops in a few months. I saw a lot of that during the Gulf War.

Peace,
Cosmic"I didn’t get this nickname fer nothin"Muffin

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I have visions of being on defense in a football game observing the offense in huddle. All of a sudden a loud argument breaks out in the huddle and the centre marches off the field. Now this should be encouraging to my team shouldn’t it.

I guess these kids think that there aren’t enough demonstrations against American policy and Americans already throughout the middle east. Or maybe they might get their faces on TV ?

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Whatever you think about the protestors, it is simply incorrect to call them kids. Some are, but there are plenty of people of all ages. Some of them even lost family members in the WTC.

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Wasn’t this country founded as a place, where if you disagreed with the government’s policy’s you could say so? While there are a lot of ignorant people on the peace side, I’d say the danger of ingnorance lies on the side of the people that want to erode that which makes this country America, and the main bit of that is free speech, not buildings, not even a city, and not even 7000 dead people, but free speech. Way more have died bringing you free speech than died in that attack.

Erek

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And grienspace, we aren’t playing football, so save your trite commentary.

Though I support your right to say it, that doesn’t make it any less sophomoric.

Erek

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This is also true of a large proportion of the people who favor military intervention. If you think it’s proper to group the peaceful response folks into a single unflattering lump, you then need to be willing to allow others to assert that there is no difference between your views on intervention and those of the “nuke Kabul now” persuasion.
As far as treasonous acts are concerned; video tapes of ignorant americans calling for the utter destruction of “Towelheads” likely provides bin Laden with some of his best recruiting materials. The voicing of such extreme sentiments certainly makes it easier for bin Laden to describe the western response as a crusade against islam. Peace protesters are not the only faction that can be accused of aiding the enemy.

31

Dissent in America is not only not unpatriotic, it is essential. It is a way, a very important way, to keep our elected leaders honest (as much as that is possible). If you think public protest against the majority opinion is easy, I invite you to try it. Somebody must keep us cognizant of the fact that the accepted view is not the only view.

This is, in the words of Yogi Berra, “like deja vu all over again”. The first anti-VietNam war protest I knew about was in '66, a scattering of maybe 30-35 people falling into two basic groups: those who were expressing deeply felt moral and political convictions, and assholes. There is not, nor will there ever be, a political movement without assholes.

And the same words were used: “treasonous”, “aid and comfort to the enemy”, the mildest of these, “naive”. Please keep in mind: you will likely never meet a cynic who does not regard himself as a hard-headed realist. As for “treason”: if you sincerely believe that your government is headed in the wrong direction, silence is treason.

Military power is a terrible alternative, when we know, without doubt, that there will be “collateral damage”, our military leaders polite euphemism for dead civilians. One is too many, and in our craving for vengeance, it is easy to overlook this. Far too easy.

At the moment, to my happy astonishment, I view our governments response as measured, intelligent, and humane. With grave reluctance, I support military action against military targets. But unquestioning obedience is insidious. Dissent is as much a duty as military service, if we are to be truly loyal to the dream of freedom and shared responsibility that, to my mind, is America.

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No, I won’t. The “fellow man” you are talking about above would happily blow my brains out for the greater glory of God and then go to lunch. Not all muslims are like that, but Osama and his merry men are. They have not only declared war on me and anything that looks or thinks like me. They have also demonstrated a willingness and ability to carry out their threats. Seeing them tried, condemned and executed or simply blown to bits wouldn’t bother me at all.

Testy.

33

I didn’t hit anyone last month because I believe violence is one of the last resorts as a means of conflict resolution. That and no one hit me first. Ideally, you should be able to use non-violent means to resolve an issue. That does not mean that physical violence shouldn’t be in your conflict resolution toolbox. If some drunk takes a swing at you in a bar, you want to be able to protect yourself with a measured physical response (ie immobilizing with a kung-fu move versus blasting his head off with a shotgun).

IMO, the WTC/Pentagon attacks were like some crazy person hitting you from behind because you are wearing a green jacket and green is evil to him. Do you try to reason with this person? Do you stop wearing green jackets because you are afraid of being hit by another crazy person? No. You either run away or defend yourself.

The way I see it, maybe our foreign policy has incited anger in some of these countries. But what have the people in these countries done to change those policies? Burning American flags only tells me you don’t like us. It doesn’t tell me why. It seems to me that there are a lot of nonviolent ways of getting your message across before you get to hijacking airplanes and attacking American cities.

I don’t support silencing these protestors, so maybe this is just a rant against their cause. In any event, I still think they are completely off base. Some kind of action needs to be taken and I believe that relatively quick limited war is better than years and years of embargos and other seige tactics. Starving a country seems non-violent but it only ends up killing civilians and creating more Osamas.

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What you don’t do is grab a crowbar and beat the cr*p out of him and several people who were passing by at the time.

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dammit sven!

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The protestors have an absolute right to free speech and protest against the government, that should not be abridged.

At its best, public protest can bring pressure on organizations such as governments that causes them to change actions that are perceived as wrong.

This, however, ain’t public protest at its best.

That these people don’t see as inappropriate their particular brand of protesting in the wake of what happened Sept. 11 speaks to their own character.

The best response is to exercise your own American rights.

If you hear a protestor use the words “racist war,” spell America with a “k,” or burn a flag, exercise your right to call them a f*cking moron not worth spitting on, let alone listening to, and mosey along.

If you hear moral equivocators adding any clause to their condemnation of the horrors of Sept. 11 with the conjunction “but,” rather than rattling off their laundry list of why the American government is bad in a seperate thought unconnected to the death of 6,000 civilians in a time of peace, feel free to disregard them as you see fit.

Ditto people opposed to war because “war and killing is bad,” (as though those who see it as necessary see it as good).

And, when you find yourself getting discouraged by the lunacy that you’re hearing, remember that 9 out of 10 Americans are in agreement that we are taking the right course of action.

Dropping bombs and food and medicine at the same time? I have never heard of a world power in the history of the planet acting in such a just and humanitarian way, in the face of the kind of brutal attack America just suffered.

So, protest away! We hear you, we get your message, we make our judgements about it and you, and we move on.

37

SVEN And others who the hell are you talking about??? You are successfully dividing the population into two parts. Those who support what you are saying and the Pro-Military. What are you thinking. Did you forget about the other 260 Millian Americans who are in shock, and who are trying to go through their own grieving processes. I drive by a rally and I see signs, stop the race war and stop the colonialism.

I realize that most of the faces I am looking at in that croud are young. This is not a rant about age though, I just want those of you who are chanting all of this to stop, calm down, go back to class, read a book, look up the definition of ‘fanatic’. You’ll see. Actually I’ll look it up for you ~ Fanatic: Marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion. As some people in other areas of the world are fanatics, we have our share here.

Stop leading a one sided juxtaposition about something you clearly could have more information on. I understand your feelings, I really do. Just direct your energies else where. Or stop and think about the end result you are looking for. Because it seems like you just want to rant en mass. Or quickly think up a story you could tell a ten year old American who can read…and who asks, Are Americans all racist Colonialists?

think befor you act, it’s what separates ignorance from intellectualism.

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Intelligent?!

For all you conflicted souls who think the only good country is a poor third world country, there are therapies and medications for senseless guilt complexes. NO country does more to distribute the benefits of “modernity” than the U.S. For you cynics, it is in our business interests to do so. Also, radical Muslims (which is how all this came up, right?) want nothing to do with modernity! Modernity is why we should all be killed, in their minds. This analysis of the problem is so oversimple, and intellectually bankrupt, I can only conclude that the millions the Soviets spent on anti-U.S. propaganda still bear fruit today.

How, exactly, is OBL (multi-millionaire, Richie Rich, Bond villian type) under our heel? An airbase out in the desert in Saudi Arabia? Israel existing? Yeesh. Some people actually believe him? Thank God over 95% of the Muslims in the world are smarter than this guy. Sad thing, OBLs message is designed to appeal to Muslims, we (the U.S.) have no redeeming qualities in the OBL world view. We should be destroyed utterly. Yet, some lobotomized leftists think this is all a foreign policy misunderstanding.

We are justified under a “just war theory” (point 3) to defend our nation. The UN has no business in this one. In the Gulf War we were invading Iraq and Kuwait for the Kuwaiti leadership, hence the need for the UN. The three other points are not really points at all since Bush’s government is following them already.

I want some, quit bogarting that joint! My God, this is a plan? Bombing “them” back to single-celled life has a better chance of working than this claptrap. What this “plan” calls for is the end of what our enemies believe in. OK, twitching nose back and forth and squinting hard that did not work. This is how socialists end up killing millions of people in “political reeducation camps.” When you “plan” calls for changing minds because they are “wrong,” that is no plan at all.

As for protesters, they have a right to speak and be ridiculed. If the protests become efforts to sabotage the military or the like, that is wartime treason and should be dealt with as such.

39

Ah, but we are playing football again.

And mswas, no one here is advocating limitations on free speech, so save your trite commentary. There are however many of us who think that those peace protestors can only have a negative effect on the prosecution and outcome of this war. Those mature people who have a clearly vested interest in opposing the government on just about any issue are largely supportive of it. We call them politicians. They know that they have to put behind their own interests in support of their country. They know that psychology plays an important role in war, and unity sends a powerful and important message. But that doesn’t matter to these protesters does it. They have no vision or hope for anything better. Their effort is useless unless you consider what their real objective is. To get on TV.

40

Just to clarify, I meant that it was treasonous in terms of loyalties, not in a legal sense (unless the demonstrations somehow overtly and directly threaten the safety of our troops).

You make an excellent point. I’m nervous about anyone who takes an extremist viewpoint. I’m pretty arrogant, but not so arrogant to believe that I couldn’t be wrong.

No you don’t. It is unfortunate that in order to defend ourselves, innocent people have to get hurt. It is also unfortunate that our enimies don’t share a similar sentiment about hurting innocents. Of course, there are probably some lunatics out there who believe that all the evil capitalists working for I banks, consulting firms and other Wall Street companies are the enemy by virtue of their career choice.