Ape Man or Man Ape? What Makes a Man?

Great Debates
1

(re the Ape as Pet thread in General Questions)

So you’ve made arrangements to have your brain frozen at body death. Cryogenics.

Sure, it’s a pseudo scientific fraud now, but imagine the technology’s been perfected.

Your brain’s okay, maybe a little worse for freezer burn, but there aren’t any human bodies available. Cloning’s out, for this hypothetical, because your DNA’s been through one replication too many.

But they can put you in an ape.

That is, they can transplant your brain into an ape’s body. Impossible now, sure, but in twenty years? In fifty?

Firstly, what are the practical concerns? Life expectancy? Mental and physical health? Will your personality become more apelike exposed to all those ape hormones? Diet? Social interactions with normal humans?

Secondly, the philosophical implications. Even if this can be done, should it? Are you still a human if you have an ape’s body? Do laws applicable to humans, to citizens, still apply to you? Would it be okay to enslave you in the manner we effectively enslave great apes for research and entertainment?

How could you prove that you were in fact a human before transplantation? Maybe surgery could make it easier for you to speak in the human fashion, but you’d still be largely incomprehensible to most people, I’m guessing.

If you had a choice between dying, on the one hand, and being effectively reincarnated in an ape’s body, what would you choose?

2

I don’t believe that a human brain would fit inside any ape’s head (except homo sapiens, naturally.)

That issue aside, I’m not sure that the brain would ever be able to adjust fully unless you died as a child. You would have to learn to walk, focus your eyes, etc. all over again and an adult brain might not be able to accomplish this terribly easily, if at all.

And of course you wouldn’t be able to speak.

Most of your other questions are more IMHO or GD questions.

3

And for that matter, what makes a man-bear-pig?

ahem

Sage Rat answered all the factual questions I could find.

As for the GD stuff, I’ll just WAG and say that somebody will enslave you. It would take countless years and numerous man-apes to gain legal representation.

4

Human brain + Ape body= Bad Idea. Haven’t you seen Planet of the Apes?

5

This thread should be moved to GD, true.

The skull size of ape vs human is an issue, sure. So I’ll posit apes that are somehow modified by genetic engineering or surgery to have enlarged skulls, sort of like hydrochephalics. This in turn raises the question of genetically engineering apes to be more human like in many areas, to make them better candidates as recipients of human brains.

How many human genes should we allow anyone to put into a given ape’s DNA? Was it Jeremy Rifkin who raised the alarm about the possibility of human animal chimeras?

If it’s a choice between death, and some sort of reincarnation in an ape’s body, I’m thinking I would try the ape route.

This calls to mind a science fiction story I read as a kid, “Call Me Joe”.

6

OK, I’ll take a crack at this before it gets moved to GD or MPSIMS. And let’s assume the entire head is transplanted.

Presumably, the medical technology to counter an ill effects of ape hormones would be much easier to master than the transplant. Life expectancy would most likely be ape-like, since you’re only as strong as your weakest link. There might be a problem getting enough blood flow to the brain, but I would assume that’s not a technically difficult task to fix.

You’d be a human. Why wouldn’t you be? What if you were a head without a body? That would be no different.

Apes lack a vocal tract capable of fully articulate human speech. But they can sign perfectly well, and you would be able to write, too. No problem establishing that you are intellectually human. If you get the human vocal tract in the transplant, then you’d be able to talk, too.

I think it would be very cool to be in an ape’s body.

7

The questions in the OP can only be answered speculatively at best. I think this is better suited to GD than GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

8

Good point. The hormonal aspect should be manageable, considering how advanced we are with sex reassignment technology.

Yeah, the whole head transplant might make more sense. If you’ve got the tech to transplant the brain, the whole head shouldn’t be too hard. On the other hand, that seems even freakier. What a picture.

True. Talking, more than writing, I think, changes the whole game.

So at this point we’re talking a human head on a super strong body. Not pretty to look at, but quite functional and alive.

9

Works for me. :wink:
ook ook ook

10

Yes, Rifkin was one of the alarmists. But this is an interesting point. Suppose you could genetically engineer an ape to have a human-like body, but not a human brain. That would certainly make the head transplant more palatable. It will be interesting, though, when we get to the point where are able to humanize apes and other animals by degrees. We’re already doing that to some extent, but we’re not quite at the point of knowing what all the genes do and how they work together. I would think we’re decades away from that point.

Chimp hands, for example, aren’t quite as dexterous as ours are. And being able to walk upright without any effort would certainly be desirable. Private parts, especially if you’re female, could be problematic.

11

What makes an ape a man?

The ability to take all the shit thrown at him and not throw any himself.

12

First of all, I watched a show on the TV about what makes a man different from an ape. What I gleaned was that humans teach and apes don’t. Suppose an ape learns to sign. Suppose that ape had a mate or a child. The mate/child would not learn to sign unless it watched the signing in action. The signer would not take the initiative to teach his mate or child to sign. An ape sees something being done that is useful and says to itself, “Self, that is useful. Remember it for later.” A man sees something being done that is useful and says “Self that is useful. Remember it for later, so I can teach my mate/child/group, so we have an advantage.”

Second of all, I believe a person is more than their brain. My brain in an ape’s body is not me, nor in a computer, etc. My brain is a big part of me, but not all of me. I suppose there are some parts of me that make me me apart from my brain.

Thirdly, if we are doing all this fidgeting to make an ape skull fit a human brain, adjust to ape hormones, etc., then why don’t you just implant my brain in another human?

13

Where do you get another human? Aside from the few brain dead bodies on life support, who makes their healthy body available for your brain transplant?

Apes can, at least in theory, be bred for human uses. According to animal rights groups, this practice is immoral. This is also part of the debate IMHO.

14

Oh, I remember that one:

15

Through this whole thread, I’ve been thinking of Ted Williams returning to Major League Baseball with the body of an ape. Would he have the dexterity to hit .400? Would he set home run records? An adult chimp is stronger than most humans. Can apes outrun humans while stealing bases? How about an outfielder who can climb the wall? :eek:

16

It should be easy enough to test major leaguers for non human DNA, and ban them on that account.

17

An ape body would make for a poor baseball player. For one thing, he wouldn’t have the balance on two legs to swing a bat well. He’d have better luck trying out for some gymnastic event, like the rings or the high bar.

18

Better hope you like bananas.