Apologizing for Slavery. Does it matter?

pseudotriton ruber ruber (or can I call you “Red?”),

Notice that I said that your apology didn’t work for me. Perhaps it would for someone else. You needn’t retract it unless… you didn’t mean it.

Wachovia’s apology is also a statement that the behaviors in the past are in opposition to the company’s values today. It’s pretty specific as well: an article in the Charlotte Observer indicates that the researchers were able to identify specific slaves by name.

brickbacon and monstro have alluded to this earlier, but it is important to understand that chattel slavery as practiced by the Portuguese, Dutch, English, and the Spanish was a new invention. (rises to find copy of Stampp’s Peculiar Institution. Can’t find it, but disturbingly notice a Laura Schlesinger book on the shelf.) Anthropologists Ashley Montague and Roger Sanjek have written extensively about this. You might liken African forms of slavery to POW status - and before you rail about the inappropriateness of this comparison, let me say it is a poor approximation, but useful nevertheless. If you lost in a war, or your chief left town, you might become a slave to the victorious group. Your children weren’t slaves by default. You were sometimes looked at with pity, as you might have been very powerful or of high status before you became a slave. It was even possible to achieve a decent social status as a slave. (Note that this was not by any means how it worked out for all slaves in Africa - I’m sure there were horrific examples of treatment in West Africa too.) This brief article explains a little about the nature of West African slavery.

To try to convey Stampp’s work, the combination of chattel status, with the religious justification that permitted God-fearing, Christian White men to treat Blacks as subhuman, was unique in the history of humanity (or at least what we know of it). Yes, some slave owners in the Americas treated their slaves less harshly than others - they were, after all, property. There are examples - in fact, here’s one from my own family - where slaves seemingly didn’t want to leave plantations:

According to my geneological research, the man who owned slaves who are almost certainly my ancestors fell in a well and died. He owned a very small plantation in North Carolina. There were four brothers and their families owned by the plantation owner. Upon his death, his offspring gave the option to his slaves of going free, or staying on the plantation. Two stayed and two left. The two who stayed may have realized in a world where every White man was your superior, you could be lynched, beaten, or kidnapped back into slavery for an even worse master. It doesn’t mean they liked being slaves; it may have meant that they at least knew the temperment of this family and the community.

Take into account the fact that African Americans were strictly prohibited - under penalty of death and dismemberment - to learn how to read and write, a seemingly freed slave could easily be “recaptured” and enslaved by another White man. This is a new wrinkle in slavery as well.

There wasn’t exactly a feedback loop about how different and brutal slavery was in the Americas - many Africans died during the Middle Passage, and not many returned to Africa after experiencing slavery in the New World.

Not to excuse Africans involved in the slave trade, but when the Portuguese and Spanish arrived in West Africa armed with muskets and guns, they either had the option to fight (and be slaughtered as the Europeans had superior weaponry) or attempt to establish trade. Often times “friendly” European traders would kidnap African slave traders, and in a bizarre irony, the slave traders became slaves themselves.

Should West African nations apologize for their role in the slave trade? Absolutely. But so should the many nations and companies involved in chattel slavery. I don’t get the “you apologize first, then we’ll do it” tactic. Similar to what’s taking place today in the treatment of prisoners as a result of the current war - the ideals of this country supercede what the status quo might be. It doesn’t matter to me, as an American, that several other nations have done, and continue to do, horrendous things to their citizens and neighbors. What matters is that we are allegedly a nation that believes in liberty and justice for all, regardless of what others might do.

Liberal. Oh, hush your complainin’. My question made *perfect * sense. But I’m not aware of any major divisiveness in the Chicago business community over declaring whether their corporation had ties to slavery in the 18th century. It passed unanimously, 44-0. Most businesses seem happy enough to comply with the ordinance, and I’m not aware of any backlash. I kind of doubt you can cite anything major. As to whom does it benefit to get this information out in the open, I would think the obvious answer is, “anyone interested in it.” Others have speculated about possible reparations lawsuits, but I also think the businesses in question would want to acknowledge their past business practices to their African American customers and employees and welcome the opportunity to denounce and apologize for them.

QuickSilver. Last I checked, though, the Surgeon General can’t arrest you for smoking and for deliberately courting lung disease or risking fetal damage during pregnacy. A warning to influence your behavior is not the same as a warning against an activity prohibited by law or alerting you to prosecution. It’s not coercive. Where’s the threat of force?

Now if you’re talking about the wave of smokers now banned from smoking indoor workplaces, bars and restaurants… most of them are complying too.

Hippy Hollow. You absolutely rock. Thanks for sharing all that, including your family history. Paints you in a different light, but in a good way. See? I knew you were leftie. >insert grinning smiley<

I recognize that there is not just one single way of looking at this issue. I’m simply suggesting that in this case, a corporation that arguably benefited from slavery is now getting more free mileage from a *mea culpa * apology. The marketing and PR guys and girls at Wachovia must be laughing it up their sleeves. Like I said, you can’t pay for this kind of advertising.

I was, in an obscure way, refering to the very real threat of cancer and heart disease more than the surgeon general’s warning or jurisdictional anti-smoking laws.

I’m reaching, aren’t I? I need longer arms… :slight_smile:

Maybe it’s just me, but…

I’m a business with clear historic ties to profits from slavery. I get to either:

a) Deny these historic ties and be exposed as a closeted racist organization and be villified in front of my peers, competition and customers.

Or…

b) Come clean about the facts and suffer no negative impact or ramifications. In fact, I may even be able to spin it as a “come to Jesus” moment.

Hmmm… which to choose… ?

Everyone in America is affected by the fact that slavery existed in America once. Were they apologizing to everyone? If this were the reason, then there’s tons of things institutions should be apologizing for, since we all suffer from the bad decisions of the past.

Offering thanks, as in a memorial, posthumously, is something society does to honor people because some people think that the dead may care about that sort of thing, or because you want to encourage the sort of behavior you are thanking. You aren’t proposing that someone is actually accepting the thanks for something their ancestor did? That would be false pride.

I suppose someone could offer an apology to the dead if they were religious, but then why make it public? Or maybe the apology is meant as a lesson, to teach other people that they shouldn’t do this behavior (slavery in this case)? Do we really need such an obvious lesson?

You know, upon rereading, I guess they were apologizing to everyone. In that case, I guess I accept… actually, I wish they hadn’t apologized, now maybe I’ll get thousands of other apologies for every bad decision our government made, all the companies that discriminated against immigrant groups, women, the makers of damaging pesticides, drugs, leaded gas, etc. Scary. I think I will proactively say that it’s ok, no apologies necessary, yeah you were all stupid, I’ll figure it out from here.
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And you’ve cited nothing more than your awareness. Do you have some major awareness? Are you a time travelling shape shifter who poses as a chair in meetings where executives put together teams to comply with the bizarre Chicago ordinance? Do they throw parties to celebrate their happiness?

But that’s just so stupid. No one is old enough to have engaged in any such past business practices. Do you seriously expect any company to come forward and say, “Yes, our ancestors slaves and we’re damn proud of it.” This ordinance is nothing but soap for hand wringers. It is a waste of time and resources. No wonder the population is moving South.

Only, y’know, compared to you.

No, but it’d be a hoot and a half any they did. Jon Stewart’s conniption fits alone would be endlessly entertaining.

Regardless, the firm was not required to apologize. Only to disclose evidence of slavery ties. Since this case is apparently breaking news, it seems that offering an apology while disclosing this information is not that common. So it is you who is being disingenous, portraying the thing as if someone was holding poor wittle Wachovia at gun point.

No, it wouldn’t be as great. Centuries of free labor tends to have its rewards, doesn’t it?. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t cause great harm to those who were enslaved and those who carried on in its legacy. Some good comes out of every evil.

The bold part is just plain incorrect. Racism in this country became the monster that it was because of slavery. Black people had be dehumanized in order to rationalize away their abuse and subjugation. If slavery had not existed, blacks could have been allowed to assimilate into society like every other immigrant. If slavery had not existed, a civil war would not have occurred, and absent of that, there likely would not have been Jim Crow, hundreds of black men hanging from trees, the KKK, and racial-based voting suppression. I could go on and on.

Remove the word “punishment” and replace with “demanding restitution from” and see what happens to your point.

I saw nothing in the article that suggested anyone made Wachovia apologize, so this is a strawman.

Me too. Why do people seem so offended by this? The company expressed regret. BIG DEAL. I’m not understanding why so many people are bitching because Wachovia had the audacity to apologize. If you’re not the recipient of the apology, why care so damn much?

If Wachovia had not apologized, there might likely be a thread demanding one. It’s news only because it’s Wachovia, one of the nation’s largest banks. The information disclosed is utterly worthless. But that’s the nature of stupid government meddling — it tends to produce absurdity.

Bullshit. Wachovia has a direct connection to however many slaves their company owed and profited from. Not every company has a connection to slavery. Many that did have tenuous ties at best. Your analogy is nothing like mine.

I know, I was actually making a reference to The Big Lebowski with Indian in place of Chinaman. It was a bad joke.

Bull. Shit. R.J Reynolds, Aetna, and several other big firms have also disclosed slavery connections, with nary an apology. And guess what? Not one Doper started a thread demanding an apology from them. I dare you to pull up one SDMB thread to prove me wrong. Go on, Liberal. Surely you have something more than loose lip flapping to back up this statement.

Actually, no its not. Plenty of people seem to believe that slavery was only isolated to the agriculture sector of the South and that slave labor made only minor contributions to the development of the country and industry. If anything, at least this information is available to the ignorant to help open their eyes about history, and facts won’t be conveniently buried.

The first step? What about the ending of seperate but equal, poll taxes, lynchings, denial of housing, and offensive images such as those found in certain advertisements and of course blackface comedy? I’d have to say that we’ve already taken the first steps.

I recognize that there are still problems but I still don’t think anyone is owed an apology. You can’t apologize for something you didn’t do to people who no longer live. You can express sorrow or regret maybe but you certainly can’t apologize.

Marc

I asked it before and I’ll ask it again: Who is demanding an apology from Wachovia? The OP asks the question “Apologizing: Does it matter?” not “Should people demand an apology?” Yet we keep seeing this strawman being argued.

The difference between expressing regret and apologizing is so slight that it hardly justifies anyone getting their ire up about it. It’s all right if someone says “That represents a terrible blight in our history” but it is suddenly so offensive and wrong if someone says “I would like to apologize for that terrible blight in our history”? Yeah, okay.

Give me a break.

Bricker seems to think that an apology is a good idea but I never suggested he was demanding an apology. Just like I’m not demanding people don’t apologize. Talk about your strawmen…

There’s a world of difference between an expression of sorrow and an actual apology. An expression of sorry is simply an exercise in empathy. An apology is also an exercise in empathy but it requires one to take responsibility. If someone stabs me in the stomach you can’t apologize on their behalf but you could express sorrow.

Marc

The difference, I think, may lie in the feeling that if I express regret, you’re not entitled to any compensation from me. I offer sympathy, I commiserate, I acknowledge that slavery is morally wrong.

But if I apologize, then you may be justified in asking me then to make it right in a material way. That, I think, is why people are balking at offering apologies, or pointing out the meaninglessness of apologizing for what one’s person’s dead ancestors did to another person’s dead ancestors. You take the issue of reparations off the table, and I think you’ll see much more apologizing but I don’t think that’s going to happen in the next few dozen generations so that’s we we’re at.

An apology is an expressment of sorrow or regret, as well as an admission of fault or responsibility. Most of the posters on this thread seem to be only focused on the second part of that definition for some strange reason.

where we’re at.

FWIW, brickbacon, your Big Lebowski reference was not lost on me.

Askia, thanks for your kind words, but I re-read my post and I don’t know if I made this clear: My relatives were the slaves, not the slave owner. Though given the number of high yella and redbone kinfolk in the family tree, I probably am descended from the slave owner as well!

Quote from Liberal:

Damn, Liberal, who shitted in your shredded wheat? How many companies out there exist that have benefited from slavery have not apologize or acknowledged their participation? Where are the threads demanding their apologies?

Furthermore, who or what makes you the arbiter to issue statements like “the information disclosed is utterly worthless” and “it is a waste of time and resources?” That may be your opinion, but unless you’re on the board of directors at Wachovia, I don’t see how that matters or factors in to what the corporation does. Apparently Wachovia’s board and shareholders don’t feel it’s a waste of time and resources. I honestly don’t get why this is causing you so much consternation. Must be nice to live in a world where your two cents is worth more than others’.

Also, I don’t understand the comment about people moving South…