Next he’ll be telling us that didn’t count because Kerekou was black.
I know, right? one of these days you’re going to have to tell me the secret of what keeps you so damned level-headed and succinct, monstro. I could use a barrelful.
And are we supposed to pity these people for their cowardice? If they are blameless, they owe neither apology or reparations. They have nothing to worry about.
Reparations has never been seriously on anyone table except for a few die-hards. And sadly, the kind of reparations that need to be on the table (compensation for modern-day second class citizenship via Jim Crow) aren’t on the table. How convenient it will be when the last Baby Boomer dies and everyone can start issuing apologies without worrying about getting sued.
The more we talk about this topic, the angrier I get. You’re right: the further we get away from the “slave days”, the more likely we’ll start hearing apologies from corporations. Maybe a thousand years from now, we’ll get something like an apology from the federal government. And all those apologies will be even more emptier than this one, because by then slavery will have really happened in “ancient times”. Everyone will then able to let out a big collective sigh of relief because they dodged that awful reparations bullet.
When people were owed an apology, they got none.
When people were owed compensation, they got none.
Even when people demanded something, they got nothing.
And then they died, leaving the burdening resentment to their children. To the future.
We’re supposed to believe it is too hard for an Fortune 500 institution to say something like, “We regret our this chapter of our history.” Suddenly, everyone’s made out of china and we have to worry about “divisiveness” and lawsuits? No apologies. No statements of regret. Let’s just keep mum about how we made our money back in the “olden times” and hope dust collects on people’s memories. Time heals all wounds, donchaknow?
If I became CEO of a corporation that employed slave labor years ago, I couldn’t with good conscience disclose that info without apologizing for it, on behalf of my company’s good name. Hell, yes it’s a PR move. I fail to see why this would be a bad motive.
I’m glad Wachovia is my bank.
Redbones and high yella folks are some of my favorite peoples, Hippy. You’d still be cool without the shared ethnicity but I’d be lying if I didn’t confess I’m quite secretly thrilled. BTW… “Damn, Liberal, who shitted in your shredded wheat?” Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh. Liberal does get mighty high-handed with his absolute pronouncements dunnhe? Oh, and I think the "moving South’ comment was Liberal’s hamfisted way of declaring Chicago inhospitable for business due to this ordinance, but it’d not be the first time I tried to impart actual meaning to Liberal’s muddled statements that attempted to be germaine to the topic at hand and still missed his point.
No, but you keep saying that no one ever owes anyone an apology for something they never did, as if that contributes anything meaningful to the discussion at hand. If no one is demanding it, then why persist on denouncing it?
Only if that world is the size of bee-bee.
What do you care if Wachovia is publically acknowledging its past and is apologizing over it? I ask this sincerely. What does it cost you? I could see not seeing the usefulness of such an action, but calling it wrong and inappropriate? I don’t get that.
Making an apology can be the very way in which someone takes responsibility. Imagine how different we would view Bush if he could manage to utter the words “I’m sorry” every once in a while. Since he can’t, we view him as someone who is not only blind to his own faults, but also too arrogant to admit his misjudgements. Making an apology may seem simple, but a sincere one can go a long way in improving things. Refusing to do so out of hubris or fear of admitting unpleasant truths is a far worse thing than doing it with no regards to its practical value.
Oh, I don’t know. Askia’s in favor of them, last time I looked:
“This country has done some repugnant injustices over the long centuries to benefit white men and I appreciate the demand for reparations even if it doesn’t happen”
from
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=131144&highlight=slavery+reparations
Level-headed? I wish. But thanks for the compliment!
I guess you can lump Askia and me together because I agree with the quote above.
And if you finish that thread and read the other reparation threads you’ve dug up, you’ll see why I feel this way.
Interestingly, in that same thread I casually said:
“Watch. Someone, someday, will quote me out of context and try to use my words against me.”
My point being that explicit apologies add to the weight of arguments favoring reparations, an argument you seem to think (wrongly) has faded away into the distance. It’s a divisive argument, it leads to ugly, hateful thinking, it leads to black people feeling entitled to a payday that they’ll almost certainly never receive, it leads to white people feeling vaguely guilty for things that they never did and never had any control over, it leads to people of mixed races feeling terribly confused, and it makes a civil productive conversation about dealing with the ongoing and real racial divide in this culture more difficult.
Okay, could you please reconcile
*I guess you can lump Askia and me together because I agree with the quote [“I appreciate the demand for reparations even if it doesn’t happen”] above. *
with
Reparations has never been seriously on anyone table except for a few die-hards.
?
You and Askia seem to be genuinely advocating reparations for slavery (Askia, if I’m taking that quote out of context, could you please show me how?) Yet you had dismissed my statement that there were people who did just that by claiming that the only people favoring reparations were a few die hards. I took that to mean that these people were inconsequential advocates for a position that no serious person argues for any more. Where have I have misunderstood you?
That sounds nonsensical to me. This isn’t like Wachovia took out my taillight in the Walmart parking lot and is publically acknowledging that they were in the wrong. The information that they are disclosing, with or without their apology, is all the evidence that is needed to rest a case on. An apology is not going to reveal any more info that is not infered from the records.
I’m sure Wachovia has got enough lawyers behind them to know if whether an apology would have significant legal ramifications or not. So I wouldn’t lose any sleep over them.
Wishful thinking. People just want to forget about slavery. Mention it in a discussion about racial disparities and they don’t want to consider it. Mention how much the country benefitted from slavery and they dismiss it. Talk about how a major bank has acknowledged its past and they want to bitch about how inappropriate that is. Talk about slavery at all and they rather talk about their great grand-grand-grand mammy from Ireland who was somebody’s indentured servant.
I didn’t say it had faded away into the distance. I said no one takes it seriously. Look at the responses on all those threads you dug up. Do you think the majority of posters on that thread–including yours truly–agree with the reparations cause?
Whether or not this is true is 100% meaningless to the question of reparations. If they are owed, then they are owed, regardless of how people feel about it. They are owed even if it causes white people to hate black people. Divisiveness, resentment, and hatred have nothing to do with justice. Righting a wrong should not hinge on public opinion.
Not this black person, because she is a realist.
If they want to feel guilty, let them. But their vague feelings of guilt have no bearing on justice.
Again, not this person. I feel no confusion. And folks who are confused will be that way regardless of reparations.
It doesn’t have to.
You haven’t shown that apologies have anything to do with reparations. To receive an apology, all one has to do is listen/read it. To receive reparations, one has to prove exactly how much money is due to them as a result of past injustices. I could apologize to you all day for messing up your life, but if you can’t show exactly how my actions cost you money and quality of life, then you have no case against me. You will get no money from me. End of story.
And just because some people may think that apologies strengthen their case for reparations, it doesn’t mean that it is wrong to apologize. A lot of good things have awful side effects.
pseudotriton ruber ruber. Phew. I’ve been speed-reading through the thread and it’s so funny: even though it was in 2002 and believe I’m much more respected as a poster now when I assert controversial ideas, that same thread was the very first one that had me so frustrated with arguing with Dopers in GD that I didn’t post back there for like, months, IIRC. In fact, tonight was the very first time I’d read that thread to the end. Did you see the pile-on against me in that thread? MAN. No wonder I left after the first page. See this is what I remembering when I said I hate to get clowned in Great Debates. Also, wow, I didn’t even realize that was you attempting to come to my rescue back then, monstro. Girl, I’m sorry I didn’t stick around. I left you hanging, didn’t I?
pseudotriton, you took me out of context but amazingly enough you didn’t misrepresent my ideas or my position like I thought might happen when I typed that. So I appreciate and respect you for that. My feeling is that apologies for slavery and reparations for slavery are largely two separate, though related, issues. The reason I’ve been reluctant to bring it up in this thread is very possibly because of an unconscious desire to avoid what happened the last time I got involved with the topic. Did I mention I hate getting clowned?
So: my position’s not misrepresented. It should be no surprise to anyone with a history of reading my political views (or digging up my posts) that I’m pro-reparations. So: are we talking about that now? Because if we are, kewl. I won’t avoid it. Bring it. You and all comers.
I think you overgeneralize. Which people? Not you, and not me. It’s a shame and a crime when anyone’s suffering is forgotten.
To the contrary, I think it’s a given that slavery is the single most crucial event in the history of African-Americans.
Not at all. Free labor for hundreds of years? Who’s going to dismiss the economic significance of that?
Not inappropriate. More objections have been voiced as to the pointlessness of Wachovia’s apology. I’m not sure who you think has said it was inappropriate.
If the only context you want to allow is that of black slaves in the U.S., then we can just agree they had it very, very bad. But if others’ experiences are permitted, you might find that there are other experiences that may have been bad, too, if not quite as bad, and that the arguments you make about the slaves might also be made in one form or another for people of other ethnicities.
I don’t demand slave reparations because I know it’s a hopeless fight. The logistics of pulling off such a thing would be overwhelming. For it to be fair, recipients of reparations would have to document how they were personally harmed. Unfortunately, I don’t think people would be able to do it, even though the harm of slavery is a historical fact.
But I appreciate the demand for reparations because it brings attention to issues that people either don’t understand or choose to forget. Whenever we talk about reparations on this board, posters come out of the woodwork, exposing their ignorance, bigotry, hatred, and biases. As you with the face said, you mention slavery and suddenly no one can trace their ancestry to the good ole USA anymore. Suddenly Americans become Irish, Germans, English, and everything else. No one talks about the Mayflower; no, we all got off of steamer ships circa 1920, when all the shit had already hit the fan. Either that, or somebody’s great-great-greant-grandfather fought in the Union Army, therefore making all their descendents valient, noble, abolitionists. Otherwise intelligent people become unable to construct an intelligent, rational argument when the topic is slave reparations. It’s entertaining, really.
A good discussion about reparations seems to bring out the worse in people. You are under the impression that this is a bad thing. Personally, I think it’s healthy.
So now do you I understand why one might appreciate the demand for reparations while not being in favor of them?
Just as I hope people can understand why I might have been perceived as sympathetic and on the fence on thhis issue three years ago that I’m through saddling and can pick a side: reparations. Yes. I’m in.
It’s sexy to fight a hard cause.
Sigh. I realy need to slow down typing…
"Just as I hope people can understand why I might have been perceived as sympathetic and on the fence on this issue three years ago, I’m through straddling it and can pick a side: reparations. Yes. I’m in.
It’s sexy to fight a hard cause."
Thanks for supplying the answer to a question I was trying to phrase. I think we analyze the situation the same way, though we draw different conclusions. You think (I believe) that as long as reparations are a valid topic for discussion (even though we both think the practical barriers to it are insuperable), the legitimacy of African-Americans’ demand for justice will be strengthened.
I believe it demeans that legitimacy. I believe white Americans close their earholes to the complaints of African-Americans when they hear the case for reparations being made. I think white America goes into just the mode you are so offended by (“You want a big payday for your suffering? Listen up, bro, my people have suffered, too–my granddad once stubbed his toe–where’s his payday?”), instead of drawing the conclusion that you have valid complaints and realistic goals in having them redressed.