Apologizing for Slavery. Does it matter?

Early in this thread I was careful to steer us to discuss the OP’s question. Not reparations. I also feel that it’s a related, yet separate issue. I think reparations are a topic deserving its own thread. (For the record, I don’t know quite where I stand there, but as monstro suggests, I don’t think the payout option would be logistically feasible. But we figured out a way to get to the moon; surely a nation with this much intellectual horsepower could come up with a way to make it happen…)

One thing that amazes me, and I’d like some serious thought devoted to this: why is there a reluctance to direct much of the hostility, impatience, annoyance, etc. to the appropriate parties? That is, Europeans and White Americans that never had the foresight to say, “Damn, these dark skinned folks, one day they might get pissed off, rise up, and kick our asses! And even if it doesn’t happen in my lifetime, maybe some descendent of mine is gonna have to give up the plantation because of my actions.”

I certainly understand why some White Americans have a hard time even entertaining the idea of companies apologizing for slavery - p.r.r. made the link to the fear of opening the floodgates for reparations pretty clear, so thanks for that. But do many White Americans realize that African Americans (along with Native Americans) rarely, if ever, get the compensation, restitution, or reparations they are owed without a) fighting like hell for it and b) typically having to compromise and scale back the original demand? I cannot think of one example from U.S. history where the “right thing” was done without a lot of delay, obfuscation, and out-and-out attempts to derail the process of justice. Perhaps the reparations for Japanese Americans interned in WWII fits in that category; I don’t know enough about that process.

pseudotriton. When has the white power structure in America ever conceded any right, due process, responsibility, condition, cause, favor, law or reparation denied to any discriminated ethnic group without a lot or hand-wringing, legistlation and verbiage? This is how America works – America don’t work no other way. You think it demeans the argument to fight and complain? Well, what’s the alternative? To sit quietly and wait for TPTB to change their minds? Wait? We haven’t waited since the letter from the Birmingham Jail. Block your ears? We’ll paint you pictures. Close your eyes, we’ll touch your hearts. Close your hearts and we’ll stuff slogans in your brains and wave money under your nose until the smell brings you around. Black people know the score.

No, no, no, no. Fighting and complaining is what too many of us do far too little of. But fighting and complaining over issues like reparations – that even its advocates admit is difficult to structure, impossible to adminster fairly and completely unlikely ever to have a practical solution --diffuses the force of the real fight.

I understand the principle you’re arguing for here. (When I was young the Paris Commune of 1968 phrased it well: “Soyez realiste–demandez l’impossible”–Be realistic, ask for the impossible) That sort of rhetoric helps keep your troops motivated, keeps the anger-level high, but it makes it too easy for your opponents to dismiss ALL your goals as unrealistic as reparations are.

jinx, Askia, you owe me a Coke!

I apologize for missing one of your fucking post in a thread containing over 150 messages. At any rate what do I care if anyone has apologized for slavery? I think it’s rather silly but I recognize that there are many who want one. It doesn’t make the apology valid in my opinion.

Marc

You think it might have something to do with this thread being about apologies and not expressions of sorryow and regret?

Marc

Sure it contributes something. Many of you don’t seem to know the difference between an apology and expressing sorrow. I don’t have to wait for someone to “demand” an apology before I denounce the concept I can do so when someone just asks for one or suggest that it should be done.

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree as I believe there’s enough of a difference to distinguish the two.

Let’s not limit it to me let’s examine why you care so much. What do you gain? What use is it to apologize? It’s possible for an individual to have an opinion on something he doesn’t feel strongly about. I can think it’s wrong of them to issue an apology and at the same time realize that it isn’t a big deal. If my state or the Feds decided to issue an apology for slavery it isn’t like I’d lobby my representative for making it happen. If they wanted to apologize to those who lived under Jim Crow laws I’d be all for it.

That’s just it, those who were responsible as well as those who were wronged are gone. You can’t take responsibility for something that another has done

I have no problem admitting unpleasant truths. I just have a problem with those apologizing for actions they’re not guilty of to those who weren’t victims.

Marc

**Hippy Hollow. ** That’s just… spooky. You also went up a notch in my book by reqiuesting a Coke, BTW.

pseudotriton ruber ruber. Most of my goals are far more attainable than the idea of slavery reparations in my lifetime, so I’m pretty comfortable having one pie-in-the-sky seemingly unattainable dream to spur me to action, which doesn’t strike me as too unrealistic. The thought of passionately engaging people with my political views doesn’t frighten me, either (it does, occassionally, frustrate the shit out of me, though).

But you know – Native Americans complained about their tribal heritage being demeaned when they were named for sports team mascots and had their war cries imitated by sports fans like the Braves’ tomahawk chop. I remember seeing thoughtful, quiet, low-key talks by tribal leaders explaining why this was wrong and the amazement of (white) audience members about this restrained and respectful approach, compared, say, the less subdued protests of agitating Negroes. This was in the mid 80s. Twenty years later, nothing’s changed, except there are more Indian gaming reservations now, and more foam rubber tomahawks sold. I fully expect there to be a Native American baseball team called the Wounded Knee WASPS any day now: maybe turnabout will be fair play.

MGibson. Temper, son. I’d rather not have you mention “my fucking” anything to me unless you’re offering up your girlfriend or your sister. You said, “You can’t apologize for something you didn’t do to people who are dead.” And when I show you where this did happen, you backpedal that it’s “not valid.” Pitiful. I mean that. I am full of pity for you.

Ahhhhh, shit. I might get a moderator warning for that one. Somebody alert a mod, let’s get this over with.

Just so long as we can put your mother on that list I guess it’s ok. I haven’t back peddled because my concept of an apology means you have to take responsibility for what happened to those who were the victims. I could say the words and apologize to you for the time little Suzy pushed you off the monkey bars in 1st grade. It’s pretty meaningless and silly but I could say the words.

Marc

The CEO’s statement to the press might have included more stuff, but from the article all we’re left with is that Wachovia 1)feels sorrow, 2)feels regret, and 3)desires to assist in racial understanding and healing.

He chose his words carefully. They are not offering compensation, nor admitting responsibility for specific crimes or actions. The CEO did not utter the words “We are at fault”. His message was simply an expressment of sorrow and regret. Despite what you might believe, this counts as an apology.

People are acting like he did something more significant than what he actually did, and I don’t understand why. Do you?

MGibson. Touche, Well-played. But let’s not get on mothers. You could apologize for Little Suzy pushing me… if she was white and I couldn’t retailate because I am black, or any other applicable behavior that’s reprehensible to you because a mamber of your group misbehaved to me, as an outsider. You must have a very priviledged life for this to have no meaning for you.

We differ on what constitutes an apology. If someone apologized to me without taking responsibility then it doesn’t count in my opinion. “I’m sorry you broke your toe” is a lot different then “I’m sorry I broke your toe.”

For me it has to do with taking responsiblity for something you didn’t do. If a company wants to apolgize then that’s their right but I don’t understand why anyone would accept it. Maybe the Feds should apologize just so I could see what happens. Will it usher in a golden age of improved race relations or will it make little impact? Let’s find out!

Marc

We differ on what constitutes an apology. If someone apologized to me without taking responsibility then it doesn’t count in my opinion. “I’m sorry you broke your toe” is a lot different then “I’m sorry I broke your toe.”

For me it has to do with taking responsiblity for something you didn’t do. If a company wants to apolgize then that’s their right but I don’t understand why anyone would accept it. Maybe the Feds should apologize just so I could see what happens. Will it usher in a golden age of improved race relations or will it make little impact? Let’s find out!

Marc

In the case of Wachovia, though, no one did any demanding, suggesting, or asking. They just issued an apology, all on their own. Do you denounce apologies given in good will, or just those that are obtained through solicitation?

I know the difference between an apology and expressing sorrow. The former is “I’m sorry for beating you over the head. I feel bad for the pain I caused.” The latter is just “I feel bad for your pain.” But I don’t see how parsing the two matters in this situation.

Wachovia basically said “We’re sorry for our company’s indirect involvement in slavery. We feel bad for the pain slavery caused in general.” Note that it did not claim responsbility for causing any pain or suffering. It expressed regret about its history and expressed sorrow for general pain. IMHO, that makes what they said more of an expressment of sorrow rather than a true apology.

You missed a golden opportunity Askia. You should have said “Let’s not get on mothers because I just got off yours.” It’s pure comedy gold. I apologize to you for being hostile in an earlier post and then continuing the hostiliy by bringing your mother into it. It was wrong of me and I hope you’ll forgive me.

I think we just have different views on who should make apologies and when they should be done. Having a different viewpoint doesn’t mean I led a priviliged life. I don’t feel guilty nor do I feel responsible for the actions of my slave owning ancestors. I agree that slavery was a horrible institution and I’m pleased that we abandoned it years ago. I can feel bad about Jim Crow, about the lynching of Emmett Till, and the plight of the nine brave students who entered Central High in Little Rock in the 50’s and I recognize that the legacy, good and bad, are still with us to this day. I just don’t feel guilty about it.

Marc

Marc, SEE. See, I knew you couldn’t have seemed as square as you seemed if you caught the “Let’s get off mothers” line. I left that last part off deliberately, thinking I could slip one by you. You just climbed up three notches just for catching for that and an extra notch for thinking it’s funny.

Look, man: nobody’s asking you to feel guilty. Reparations aside, I just honestly feel that corporate Americans businesses with ties to slavery apologizing, comminserating hell even just acknowledging that fact is good for something and not at all a sign of weakness or whatever. Paraphrasing Marshall Mathers, there are a million others out there who walk like me, who think like me and agree with me, even as I realize that that there are bunches of people out there who don’t. You can disagree. Fine. You can think it’s sily. Just don’t keep telling me my emotional reaction to it is is meaningless and silly and pointless, 'cuz I don’t want to hear it. That’s insulting.

Well, that’s not what Wachovia said. They said something more like “We feel bad about breaking people’s toes in the past.” They don’t name victims or specific instances, but they at least express regret about what they did. Maybe’s not the best example of an apology, but is it better than nothing? Yes.

Maybe because people often accept that apologies hold more symbolic value than real worth. Doesn’t it make you feel just a teensy-bit better when someone apologies for the bad behavior of a friend or relative? Doesn’t it make you feel like someone cares for your embarrassment or pain?

I want the Feds to apologize because it costs nothing and it would be a nice gesture of good will for everyone, including people reading the history books thousands of years from now. Anyone who thinks it would usher in a golden age of improved race relations is just foolin’ themselves.

I think not apologizing when one should is a greater sign of weakness but I recognize others don’t feel the same. I’m all for Americans having a greater understanding of the impact of slavery and how that legacy matters even 140 years after the fact. I don’t particularly think it’s a big deal for a company to reveal that they had ties to the slave market during the 1800’s. I wonder how easy it would be to find a large company from those days that didn’t have ties to slavery. Other people seem to think it’s important and I just don’t understand why.

Marc

Personally, I don’t care if one of my Great- Grandfathers was Simon Legree and the other Jefferson Davis. :dubious: I had and have no control over their acts, and I cannot and will not apologize for anything that I did not do or had any control over. Even if it was just an act of ommision. Now, if you can come forward and say “I was personally one of your Great-grandfathers slaves, you inherited from him, you owe me”- we’ll talk (I’d like to talk to a 140 yo person, in any case). But- all their slaves- even the youngest babe- is now dead. No-one alive in the USA was ever a legal slave. Thus, as you said- you have no damages, and you are owed nothing.

What my ancestors did or didn’t do to yours or what your ancestors did or didn’t do to mine has no bearing on whether or not *you or I *owe each other anything- not a nickel, not an apology.

See- it’s like this- in order for an apology to have any meaning, you must be able to mean it. IMHO- I can’t apologize for the actions of others, just my own. Now, perhaps if others caused harm- and I, through my inaction failed to stop it- then maybe you have a case. So, if you can show that me drinking african coffee or buying a diamond perhaps led to slavery in modern day Africa- then we can debate over whether or not I owe those slaves an apology (I don’t drink coffee, and I despise diamonds for just that reason, but still…).

It isn’t that slavery wasn’t evil- it was. It isn’t that we want to forget about it. It is just that nothing we can do can help any of those who were victimized by slavery- each and every one of them is dead. And, I, personally, did not keep any slaves, or aid & abet slavery, or even through inaction, allowed slavery to exist.

Now, I do what little I can to combat modern day slavery. I don’t buy diamonds, I don’t buy african coffee and such from the slave areas. I donate. I volunteer. What do you do? (“you” being directed at no one poster in particular).

Let us work to stop slavery in the here-and-now; not gnash our teeth, rend our clothes and cry crocodile tears over something in the far past we are truely powerless to do anything about. When some say “never again”, I say “It’s happening NOW”. It’s easy to say “I’m sorry” when it’s really meaningless, it’s hard to actually DO SOMETHING.