apparently, basic cable, DVR and on-screen channel guides don't mix - WHY?

In My Humble Opinion
1

We have basic cable - not digital, just the very lowest-end cable - and recently gotten our first cable box (that in itself is a long story). We were given the choice to get a box with DVR, so of course we went for that.

So, the guy came over and hooked up box #1. He showed me the “guide” button and lo the on-screen channel guide comes up with all the channels and show descriptions. Wow…how 21st century! Then I asked about the DVR and he did the “oh shit” face and realized he hadn’t read the work order correctly. So he replaced box #1 and hooked up the cable/DVR combo box (box #2).

He hit the “guide” button for box #2 and nothing happened. When I flipped through the channels, the little info window on the bottom of the screen would pop up, but would only give the channel name (WNBC or whatever) and a “no program data” message. The tech called the office, and at the end of the call he just kind of shrugged and said “I guess you don’t get a guide.” Uh, okaaaay. So why did it work on the other box? Another shrug. The DVR worked, but I had to program in each show manually - by channel and start/end time. So when you look at your list of recordings, there are no show names.

After a few days we realized that not having an on-screen guide was a pain in the ass. So my boyfriend called TW and after some trouble-shooting they said he could go to the TW office and exchange the box (at NO point did they tell him we didn’t get an on-screen guide because we had Basic service). After BF trekked to deepest Brooklyn to swap boxes and plugged in the new box (#3) at home, we had super-mega cable for about a day and a half. We had every channel, every premium channel, everything - and the on-screen guide and the DVR worked great, but it was not to last. In the middle of a show, the box re-booted itself and went back to basic cable and… no guide.

So we called TW again and they said we should have a guide (again, NOT saying that our service was any issue), and a tech is coming out on Thursday to try to make it work. The boyfriend insists he won’t let the guy leave until we have working cable with a guide and DVR, but I am not hopeful.

I just don’t understand what, technically, is preventing us from having an on-screen guide. It can’t be the signal coming through the cable, because box #1 definitely had a working guide. And I am not sure how it can be the DVR box itself, when we had “super cable” the guide worked fine. It seems to be our specific cable service combined with that particular DVR box, but I don’t understand why. What pisses us off the most is that apparently when the whole digital-antenna changeover takes place, even people with no cable at all will have an on-screen guide - so if we are paying for cable (cheap as it may be) and the additional rental fees for the cable box and DVR, why shouldn’t we reasonably expect to have an on-screen guide - like everyone else.

Also, if this is a known drawback of adding DVR to basic service, surely they could have told us this up front, or at least in one of several phone calls to customer service? Why waste both their and our time by sending out a tech? Can we really be the only basic cable household in Brooklyn to attempt DVR? Really?

Of course we can watch TV and do the DVR thing without a guide, as essentially a gussied-up VCR. But we’re wondering if we’re getting sub-standard service maybe we should think about TiVo or a different standalone DVR instead of the one from TW. I just suspect that would complicate matters even further, rack up more costs, and we honestly don’t have room for a bunch of different boxes.

2

There is no reason you’ve stated that should prevent you from getting the channel guide. However, why do you have a box at all if you’re not getting digital cable? The box is only needed to convert digital to the analog signal your TV understands.

3

I’m a TW customer in Queens, and I have a DVR with digital service and three regular boxes with digital service. I sometimes lose the program guide on one box or another ( I get the same "No program data " message) I can usually get the program guide back by rebooting the box. It is sometimes necessary to reboot the box by unplugging it from the wall outlet. However, looking at the Time Warner website, it appears that digital service is required for DVR service. If I were you, I’d call Time Warner and specifically ask if digital service is required for DVR service to work properly.
If you don’t get the program guide, you’re not getting most of the benefits of DVR service. You may or may not be able to pause live broadcasts, but you certainly can’t program the DVR to record a particular program every time it’s shown, or all new episodes of a particular program. My DVR can search the program guide by either title or keyword - the non DVR boxes can only search by title.

flex727, In NYC, all cable service requires either a box or a cable card, and boxes were required even before digital service was offered. I’ve known people who used splitters to connect a TV without a box or card- they can get a few stations on random channel numbers, but that’s it.

4

Of course you’re correct that some cable systems scramble all channels (even basic ones), but the OP said that they were getting basic cable without a box. I guess the omitted “long story” might tell us that the cable system converted to all-digital, or scrambled, etc.

5

We had “direct hookup” meaning the cable went directly into the TV. It worked fine for a while, but over time we started losing quality on some channels, and some would go out all together. Service calls to TW would basically result in “well, if you had a box we could check it from this end, but you don’t so we can’t so sucks to be you.” When we were talking to them about getting a box, they offered one with DVR. “I can get DVR with Basic cable, you’re SURE?” and they said yes, so, we got one.

And indeed the DVR does work, albeit without the significant benefits of being able to record whole seasons and such. However, anything we programmed in during the brief time we had “super cable” still works, as long as we still have that channel. It is still recording all episodes of American Idol, for example, but not Flight of the Conchords.

6

Is it a Motorola box? If so, and if you want to risk losing what you were able to set up, you might try a full reset:

This is the Full DVR STB Clear / reset. This will delete everything and cause the box to reset and download Account settings, and I-Guide info

the correct buttons are as follows

STB Power Off

15 Sec replay / rewind
15 Sec replay / rewind
15 Sec replay / rewind
My DVR
Live
Live
Live

7

I just remembered my niece works for TW of NYC, so I asked her. She said that digital is needed for DVR service, and implied that someone might have told you otherwise because of the extra charge for DVR service- the box rental costs the same as a regular box,but the DVR service is an additional $9.95/mo. You might want to check your bill. Tivo costs a few more dollars a month, but I think they have a model that works properly with basic cable.

8

FYI, there have been reports that cable systems are so hard up for HD boxes that they are now handing out DVR’s with the DVR function turned off.

9

OK, I’m no uberguru but I have been twiddling with DVRs for a few years.

I’m going to make a few guesses about your cable signal. I assume your basic channels are analog, since they worked going directly into your TV (which I’m guessing is an older model?). I assume they also transmit a bunch of digital signals, which are scrambled.

If you plug the cable directly into an older TV, it won’t even see the digital part of the signal. What it can see is the analog part, and that does not include program guide info. You can’t blame the cable company for that; it’s an old standard.

Now you’ve got a set top box with DVR, and that can get the digital signals as well as analog. The program guide info rides along as part of the digital signal. The box and the cable company can chit chat via the cable.

So when you got box #3, it was probably set by default to get everything that comes down the cable including all the fancy channels. After a few days, the cable company re-scanned your neighborhood and reset the box to the basic service level. That cuts out the digital signal, which slays the program guide.

Your DVR needs some source of programming info to show you a schedule. If I guessed right back there in paragraph 2, there’s no way for the cable company to let you get the program guide without also giving you the digital channels. It might take a major rework of their signal to make it possible. This problem will eventually go away when they upgrade all channels to digital.

Alternative suggestion: If you live in a metro area and just want the basic channels, you might try an amplified directional antenna (this one works for me) and tell the cable company to take a hike. Then you’ll get a dozen or two digital channels complete with program guide. You’ll need a DRV, of course, but I’m pretty sure any of them will pick up the program guide off the air. The major caveat is your reception can go to hell during heavy precip. On the other paw, no monthly bill! Unfortunately, if you’re out in the sticks you’re probably stuck with the cable company.

10

Alternate suggestion #2: If you upgrade to the most basic level of digital channels that should get you the program guide for all channels.

11

Hmmm. On third thought from your description of box #1, it sounds like the program guide limitation comes from the software inside your DVR box. That’s still not something that they can or will twiddle with. Going to the most basic digital channel package would probably still work. I wonder if there’s any way humanly possible to get them to confirm that before you buy.

12

Maybe box #1 was set up for digital in error. That would allow it to pick up the guide. Box #2 is setup correctly and shows no guide because it’s not decoding digital signals, and Box #3 was orginaly setup to receive digital in error and so it received the guide as well until your service was corrected.

13

Lots of interesting takes on the situation here…thanks, everyone.

So, here’s the latest. On Thursday the tech came out. He ended up calling the office while he was here, and they said, definitively, that Basic cable service does not come with a guide. They didn’t explain why the guide showed up on box #1, so perhaps “Death Ray” is on to something. However, the tech said we could add cable guide service to our existing package for only $3/month. Bwuh? Okay, fine. We ordered it up, and they got it working in about two seconds.

So why did it take no less than five calls to customer service and two tech visits to inform us of this option? And why in the would anyone choose cable or DVR service without the cable guide? Why not just add 3 bucks to the cost of the box or the subscription and be done with it?

To answer my own question, my guess is that most people up to now who wanted DVR also wanted digital cable, or they were told they couldn’t get DVR without upgrading (per Doreen’s friend), so they went to digital. While the guide would be built-in to the price of your lowest-level digital cable package, it wouldn’t be built into Basic since you wouldn’t necessarily have a cable box for that service. Now that DVR is, for some reason, compatible with Basic service the guide part needs to be added on. This being a new development and there are relatively few Basic/DVR subscribers, this issue simply hasn’t come up very much.

To be most charitable to TW, this could be why their CS reps and techs aren’t up to speed on the totality of options available. But probably more realistic is that at $13/mo. they have no financial incentive to give a crap about Basic cable subscribers - except as potential future digital-cable subscribers. So why waste time on giving us more options? Much better to just tell us that we should join the 21st century and upgrade.

When we first decided to get the cable box/DVR they told us the cable box rental plus DVR service would increase our bill by about $20 total, including tax. I’m okay with adding another $3, since the next step up (including DVR) would be at least a $40 increase. But we’ll see how it all sorts out on our next bill. I would totally consider going the broadcast + TiVo only route (a friend of mine is doing that) but our current setup seems comparable in cost and much more hassle-free (one box, no installation needed), plus I get to keep the Food Network.

14

Inquiring minds want to know.

I am very surprised that the lowest digital service is $20 more than the lowest analog service when the box is factored out. You might want to re-check this. Go to the website and check the prices as though you weren’t already a customer and compare the two, keeping in mind that the box is $10 per month with or without digital service.

Cable companies are really desperate to move people off the analog side to eventually free up bandwidth so they can sell ever more expensive options.

ETA: Oh, and NEVER trust anything any cable company rep or tech tells you. Very few of them have any clue about what they’re doing. You must go to the website for reliable information.

15

Thanks, flex. I understand it is a good idea to be extra-cautious when it comes to cable billing. Or any billing, really.

What I had:
$13.90 Basic cable
44.95 internet (Earthlink Standard 10 Mbps/512 kbps) 1.15 fees

$60 total bill

What I have now (from the 10/08 Manhattan price guide):
$13.90 cable
7.10 box rental
.25 remote control
9.95 DVR service
3.00 channel guide (i just found this as “Digital Navigator” in the TW price guide)
44.95 internet

$78.15 plus ??? fees = $82, $83?

Compared to:
$81.90 - “Double Play” Digital Starter Pak + High Speed Basic (1.5 Mbps/256 kbps) incl. box/remote
9.95 - DVR service

$91.85, not including taxes and fees, for slower Internet service than I have now.

The next “double play” package to get me the same speed Internet would be $107 without the DVR or fees.

A la carte service would be slightly better at about $107 before fees including the DVR, but still over $40 more than what I’ve been paying. Phone service packages have no appeal because I don’t need a land line.

Since fast Internet and DVR are more important to me than lots of channels, I feel I’m getting the best deal I can. Sure, I’d love to have the Discovery Channel, but I’d rather save the $10-$20 a month.

As for getting the first cable box, I’m not sure it’s worth telling, but since you asked… When I signed up six years ago or so, I got direct hookup to save money on the box rental fees. Over time the quality of the channels degraded quite a bit - particularly in sound quality. Sound levels varied greatly between channels. Spike TV was completely unwatchable (more accurately unlistenable), and sound would completely drop out of some channels. Other channels (Food Network!) dropped out all together for days at a time, then would come back, then go away again. The last straw was losing sound on CBS. You can do a lot of things to a girl, but don’t take away her Craig Ferguson. After many frustrating calls to TW, in which they basically said “you don’t have a box so we can’t do anything,” I decided to try a cable box to see if that would fix the problems, and amazingly enough, it has! My boyfriend can even watch Star Trek on Spike to his heart’s content. So though I’m not thrilled about paying >$20 more a month, it’s well worth it for the DVR alone.

16

Just another interesting tidbit for, well, cable geeks I guess: our Basic Cable gives us about 55 channels technically, but unless you speak a few languages, really love TV shopping, or enjoy horse racing, you probably won’t watch very many of them. Between the BF and me we might watch up to 13, including the three C-SPANs, but spend probably 90% of the time on 7 or 8 of them. Upgrading to Standard service (not digital) would add another 60 channels, but from what I can tell from the price guide, that would push my bill well past $120/month. Clearly they are trying to get people to go digital if they go anywhere. It is only through perseverance and an extreme dislike of giving Time Warner my money that I managed to figure out how to pay as little as I am now.

And to answer a question from way above, I bought my TV in 2002, I think, so I guess that qualifies as an older model. So of course it’s not HD, and we’re not planning on getting a new one until this one conks out, but it appears that even basic cable has about five HD channels included, though I think we would have to get a different cable box.

17

Not necessarily. All the Motorola DVRs are also HD boxes. If it’s another brand then I dunno.

If it is a Motorola box, then you can actually watch those HD channels on your regular TV (downconverted to 480i of course).