I was having a conversation with one of my female coworkers about a few things and it came to her saying that someone is not a “real” man if they hit a woman in any circumstance even in self defense.
I chuckled at this. I told her that I would defend myself if a woman constantly hit me not only to protect myself but to teach her that actions have consequences. I mean why should an adult who assaults a person be excused for their actions because they might be weaker than me?
She replied defensively saying that only “cowards” get revenge and being “the bigger man” is honorable.
I politely ended the conversation. But it left me with a question.
Why does society consider not being a “real” man so bad? Why not a “real” woman. I never hear women being questioned about her identity or how society perceives her just because of an action. And anyway even if I was a coward for hitting a woman in defense how would that make any difference to how I live? I would still have a good job, have a few loyal friends, be in good health, have personal freedoms etc. So what exactly is the point of these seemingly pointless labels? Are they just meant to strike fear into people?
Oh, it certainly happens. I’ve been informed that I can’t be a woman because I’d just beat up a guy in a computer game, for example. It is also not possible for me to be an engineer or, since I am an engineer, to be a woman. Maybe if I got people holding the last two views in the same room at the same time I’d cease to exist, or perhaps I’d turn into a pink cauliflower?
What’s absurd is the things on which some people hang their definitions, and the whole notion that it is them who define reality. Reality will continue doing whatever the hell she wants to do, same as I will continue being a woman and you will continue being a man, regardless of morons’ definitions.
My ex wife used to get physically violent with me. I never hit her back, but I did have to restrain her, which would leave bruises on her upper arms from where I was holding her.
And when the cops get called, guess who gets to go to jail because they weren’t being a “Real Man”?
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… and it came to her saying that someone is not a “real” man if they hit a woman in any circumstance even in self defense.
…
She replied defensively saying that only “cowards” get revenge and being “the bigger man” is honorable.
…
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If that’s actually what she said I don’t understand her reasoning. Self-defense and revenge are two different things.
As for me, the reason for why I would not hit a woman in self-defence (except perhaps, when I’d be in fear of death or permanent disability) is cowardice. Does this cowardice really make me more of a ‘real man’?
Someone I had a class with echoed this. He came into class with a black eye & privately he admitted his ex who is his kids mother did it to him. He said that the cops came, the cops yawned, and the cops left.
“Why didn’t you try to stop her or try to hit her back?”
“Because then I’d be in jail.”
“But she was beating you black and blue… you have a right to self defense.”
“No, you don’t. You really don’t. If those cops came and she had had even one red mark on her, even if I was beaten black and blue and bleeding on the floor? I’d be cuffed and taken out of therel.”
“Bullshit.”
“That’s no bullshit. That’s real. That’s how it is. I don’t know where you think you live, but its like that everywhere else around here. It happened to me once; I Know…”
Granted I wasn’t there and I only heard one side of the story, but I did see the black eye and that one side of his face was swollen. If this is the case, then i honestly don’t know what a man being hit is supposed to do.
Of course society judges women. Don’t want children? There’s something wrong with you. Never married? Must secretly be a lesbian. I don’t have enough time or space to get into the hell that is being a female in our looks oriented world. I think your coworker’s statement is pretty short sided but if the only thing you have to do to keep your man card is refrain from hitting another human being, you’ve got it pretty easy.
In my experience, you can always grab a violent woman’s wrists, like Grrr! did, and so defend yourself without hitting back. But what do I know? I hate sports and I cook.
This reminds me of a thread I started years ago asking if it was more socially acceptable to beat up a physically capable woman (think Rhonda Rousey or Gina Carano), a freakishly strong retarded boy or a small, weak man (keeping in mind that you are not guaranteed to actually beat the first two in a fight).
I mean…it’s kind of easy to “teach someone about consequences” when you are much bigger and stronger. Particularly if your response is out of proportion to the actual threat to your person.
It depends on what you consider being a “real man”. If you consider being a real man as being a violent bully, that’s really not going to fly outside of certain lowbrow segments of the population. It may actually cost you promotions or even your job.
No, to keep your man card, you have to punch out the tough bad men, trip up the weak bad men, outsmart the bad women, and ride off into sunsets (optional).
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So what exactly is the point of these seemingly pointless labels? Are they just meant to strike fear into people?
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Yes.
Nava: Ironically, being a male techie doesn’t make you manly. It makes you a geek who never gets the girl. Us STEM types are in a sexless limbo, like snails and amebae.
Along the same lines, I was verbally and physically bullied a lot in middle school, and at some point I started physically defending myself against the physical assaults. But there was one handicapped kid who used crutches to get around (think Jimmy from South Park) who was one of my bullies, and I knew I couldn’t give him the same bloody nose I was handing out to others; if I did I would be the shame of the school, and nobody would ever believe that this little crippled kid was actually the abuser. Cartman would have been proud of the fucker.
Do you want the approval of a woman who thinks female on male domestic violence is acceptable?
Ask her if she thinks a woman getting revenge on a guy who beats her up is unethical. This woman probably wants the best of both worlds when it comes to gender relations. Equality when she wants it, special treatment when she wants it.
There really aren’t many options for men who are victims of domestic violence sadly. If you call the cops, you will probably go to jail. I’ve heard enough stories to know there are no real resources for male victims.
Anyway, was that a tangent? My point was, earning the approval of someone who thinks domestic violence is OK (as long as she and people like her are not the victims) is not someone whose approval you should be seeking anyway.
Because we all come out of the “great” tradition of the patriarchy. Being a “real” man meant holding your birthright, your God given position of power over women and children and animals. Men used to do that by beating women, children, and animals. When we said, ‘nope, no more of that!,’ the legal and social acceptability went away, and the practice decreased, but there’s still a widespread idea that men should have dominion over their women. They just can’t hit them.
On the flip side, there’s still the idea that women are much, much weaker than men. Women are taught that it is okay to hit them (I sure was - was any other lady here ever told to go for the balls?), because they can’t really hurt them.
The practices of the patriarchy have fallen off somewhat. The ideas and traditions are still going strong. And they hurt everyone, men and women and children.
If you think there aren’t ideas about being a “real” woman, I can assure you that the patriarchy has that well covered too. And it, too, is very damaging.
I was raised with this idea, that it’s ALWAYS wrong for a man to hit a woman. Frankly, it’s bullshit. It’s wrong for ANYONE, man or woman, to use violence except in appropriate response to violence against oneself. I will say that there is to a certain extent an obligation not to use excessive force, but it’s difficult to expect someone to be able to accurately judge what is and isn’t excessive force when they’re being assaulted, so… yeah.
As a guy that’s bigger and stronger than most men, much less most women, it’s something I’m very conscious of when I’m in those sorts of situations. I’ve been in the unfortunate situation where my ex thought it was okay for women to hit men, part of how I came to realize how stupid the idea that men can’t defend themselves is. And I’ve, unfortunately, had to use physical violence against men twice in my adult life, both times, in retrospect, I probably held back more than I should have.
I do disagree with this. It’s not your job to teach someone else that actions have consequences. You have a right to defend yourself and a moral obligation to help defend others around you, but you are not within your rights to punish. Besides it’s not like women, or men for that matter, just go around randomly hitting people because they can, unless they’re sociopaths, at which point your punishing won’t mean anything anyway.
So, for example, if you’re dating a woman and she hits you, defend yourself and then break up with her. The consequence of her action is that you leave her, not that you hit her back. If you’re hit by a coworker, defend yourself and report her to HR. If it’s a family member, like a sister or mom, it’s a little tougher to not be around them, but you have to protect yourself.
All of this “real” man stuff is one of the things about our society that REALLY angers me. As in, “real” men NEVER hit women, “real” men never cry, etc. I feel the same way about “real” women things too; don’t fool yourself that the same sort of nonsense doesn’t exist toward women too, men are just less aware of those issues just as many women are less aware of these things facing men. But the point is, it’s these sorts of distorted views of what “real” masculinity and femininity are that I think are a big part of why gender politics are so messed up right now, it creates a double standard, and it hurts men AND women as a result. Even worse, when it involves situations like domestic violence kids become innocent victims of this nonsense, and that infuriates me, as it should. Everyone, male or female, has a right to defend himself or herself; and both men any women should have these sorts of situations taken seriously and taken fairly.
Ask her how she would feel about that if she were ever sexually assaulted. She would run to the criminal “justice” system, which is actually a criminal revenge system.
I know. My point was that they are neither male nor female. I should have said “limbo” rather than “sexless limbo” since, as you pointed out, they do have a sex.