April R, we need to talk. Well no, I need to talk. To you. Because I'm fed up.

[raspberry_hunter]

@leftfield6

This, and so much this. April, you say you want to preserve the feeling of the other guy, but I’ve been where your husband is, believe me, if he knew everything that you’ve done, he is NOT REALLY okay. Either he is too weak to challenge you on it, which is not healthy, or he is fine with it on some weird level, which, not to be judgey and all, is not healthy.

When I learned of her flirting online shenanigans, she said she would quit cold turkey. But she was addicted, just like I think you are. The attention from other men fed into her lifelong insecurities. She didn’t stop, and now I have visitation rights for our dog Lucy very other week

As a man who respects himself too much, I said “I ain’t got time for that” and am moving on.

You are too concerned with the feelings of the wrong person and not concerned enough about the emotions of the one you should care about.

Oh, actually, I have something else to say about this, because I feel bad for your husband.

I mentioned in the other thread I have first-hand experience of being in AprilR’s shoes. My boyfriend at the time said “it” was okay. (The “it” in question being hanging out with Ex and talking to him all the time.) He said it was fine. He said he wished he could meet my needs better. He said he knew I was a good person.

By doing this continual boundary-stomping when I should, as his girlfriend, have known better – I super, super fucked with his head. (Yes. I am a Mormon, and I’m using the f-word, because I think it merits it.) The actual cheating (and, I mean, I was a ditzy Mormon college student, it was kissing and groping, no actual sex involved with any of these players, I shudder to think if there had been) was just the cherry on top. He knew I was a good person, so what did that say about him that I would do that to him? He must be absolutely terrible. He must be not good enough, not manly enough, not something enough. He was still super messed up counts seven years later, five years after we’d actually broken up and after we’d both gotten married to different people. He may still be messed up today, only he doesn’t talk to me any more so I don’t know.

I know I’m not responsible for his mental health and that he must have already had a boatload of issues or else this wouldn’t have hit him so hard. Still, it is the thing I regret most in my entire life. If I could go back and do one thing over, I wouldn’t hurt him like that.

But that’s not why I’m saying this – I’m just saying, I agree with leftfield that if your husband does know the extent of everything and is fine with you keeping in contact with this guy, it is not healthy. Good for you leftfield for putting your foot down and refusing to let your mind get screwed over.

Okay, now that I’ve spilled my life history all over the Pit, I really am done with lecturing you, AprilR. Sorry for the additional lecture.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Anaamika

I’m probably going to get smacked down for this but I feel like it’s threads like this that are slowly making this board a sterile, lifeless place. Every time people come in and talk about themselves - good, bad or otherwise - we severely punish them for talking.

If you look back at my posting history, I used to post a lot more, and say a lot more, and start more threads. But people kept coming in with extremely harsh criticisms, and they just rip you apart. Sure, it’s just a message board - which is exactly it. After a while you shrug and go, ok, fine, I won’t post it. And then you lose another fun poster.

I feel like we have driven away a lot of fun posters like this. I post less and less myself, and a lot of my friends from the old days have gone to places more fun. If you’re going to give me the line about “fighting ignorance”, well you guys are winning, sort of. Already this board is mostly about arguing about elections and desperately trying to prove you’re right.

My point? Maybe April R is annoying people but she’s not breaking any rules. She’s talking about real stuff that is happening in her real life. Sure, chastise her, yell at her, but telling her to stop entirely? What’s going to happen is she will eventually stop…and we’ll lose yet another poster.

That might be OK by you, of course.

I like that you wrote this FWIW. I don’t really know if this is a trend specific to this message board or if it is a larger trend, but I have read in a couple threads about how people muffle themselves for fear about writing something dumb and being ridiculed.

I don’t have too much fear of writing something and being ridiculed about it; I just don’t really care. Despite that, a message board full of posters like me would really suck - I have very little to say that would arouse a ton of interest; I’m just not very creative and I live a very simple life.

[dropzone]

@Mr.Nylock

I don’t really know if this is a trend specific to this message board or if it is a larger trend, but I have read in a couple threads about how people muffle themselves for fear about writing something dumb and being ridiculed.

This self-censorship is why Freud caused the downfall of English-language literature. If she came along after Freud Louisa May Alcott might never have published anything. Daddy issues? Ya think?

@raspberry_hunter

By doing this continual boundary-stomping when I should, as his girlfriend, have known better – I super, super fucked with his head. (Yes. I am a Mormon, and I’m using the f-word, because I think it merits it.)

It’s okay. In Psychology “fucked with his head” is a term of art.

[dropzone]

@Anaamika

I’m probably going to get smacked down for this but I feel like it’s threads like this that are slowly making this board a sterile, lifeless place. Every time people come in and talk about themselves - good, bad or otherwise - we severely punish them for talking.

If you look back at my posting history, I used to post a lot more, and say a lot more, and start more threads. But people kept coming in with extremely harsh criticisms, and they just rip you apart. Sure, it’s just a message board - which is exactly it. After a while you shrug and go, ok, fine, I won’t post it. And then you lose another fun poster.

I don’t recall anybody, other than the usual suspects, coming down on you that hard, and those guys can be safely ignored. But I think I know what you are saying. You were raised right, and you don’t have to put up with shit like that. You chose to post less, and we are poorer for it. Please post more.

OTOH, I was raised in a house with a judge, two future lawyers, a future parole officer who was too crazy to be a lawyer, dropmom, and me. The dinner table was a battleground, where you were judged by your knowledge and your wit. While the Pit initially bothered me because too often rudeness was accompanied by lack of knowledge and lack of wit, I got used to it, learned who to ignore, and kept posting. Sometimes without knowledge and often with a cornball “wit” that is more stupid than funny. You can see why I didn’t enter the family business.

So damn the assholes and post more! A lot of us like you.

[raventhief]

Even though I may be a villain in this particular piece of theater, I don’t mean to be. I don’t want AprilR to post less; I don’t want any of our merry band of misfit toys to post less. I am just trying to convince April to see a different side of the issue. If she and her husband have discussed it and decided that no infidelity has occurred unless Tab P is inserted into Slot V, more power to them. If they have NOT discussed it, then she may be surprised at what other people view as betrayal. She may not. I have no idea what constitutes fidelity in any given marriage. I agree with other posters that this mindset may well lead to physical infidelity. It’s because I do like AprilR as a poster that I have been moved to speak.

And **Anaamika **(and others that have retreated from the MB), yes, do post more. Give as good as you get if we get a bit obstreperous.

[MichaelEmouse]

@raventhief

Even though I may be a villain in this particular piece of theater

Nah.

@raventhief

And **Anaamika **(and others that have retreated from the MB), yes, do post more. Give as good as you get if we get a bit obstreperous.

Some people, which seems to include Anaamika, see the kinds of exchanges she posted about as abuse and aren’t anymore interested in giving those than in getting them. A bit like a kid who gets shoved in school. Telling him to shove others may not be good advice because maybe he doesn’t want any shoving.

I’m pretty sure that the people who were cunts to Anaamika in her threads should have been on ignore anyway.

@raventhief

I am just trying to convince April to see a different side of the issue.

A lot of people have done that and she has persisted in her silly ways. She has repeatedly offered dishonest responses and seems unable or/and unwilling to engage in introspection and improvement of her cognitions, affections and behaviors. And throughout she argued like a git. Her defense of her change of opinion concerning emotional cheating and her justifications for continuing contact were transparent bullshit. Doing that will quickly draw contempt here.

And now the April Drama Wagon has dumped this song in my head: (warning, 90s alternative rock link)

Everclear - Everything To Everyone

[Monty]

I really didn’t have any opinion of the pitee until just a few moments ago when I saw her post about her amazing mind-reading ability.

I wonder if she can read my mind now to determine my opinion of this pitting.

[Inna_Minnit]

@April_R

I want to say I appreciate the Pitting.
It’s helped me step back and look at this with a little more clarity.

Yes, love the attention from Guy Friend. I won’t lie about that. This bored housefrau gets mad tingles from it.
But I love my marriage and family more.
Guy Friend is my friend. Nothing more, nothing less. I’m not going to run away from him. I’m not going to ignore him. I’m going to acknowledge my feelings for what they are. Lustful, ego driven infatuation that can never trump the deeper more cultivated affection and love I have for my husband. He gives me more than I ever imagined I could have in a relationship, and I’m not going to compromise that for a crush, despite what some of you think.

Thanks again, this Pitting was effective, though perhaps not in the way it was intended

You act like you are the only player here. You used this dood to feed your ego. What about him? You dangle yourself like a piece of meat, then it’s all “oops! Tee hee! Just kidding!” And you continue to play him like a fiddle. Disgusting. And he is apparently as broken as you are because he puts up with it. As does your dear Cuckold, er I mean, husband.

[Anaamika]

Well, thank you to all the people who have backed me up. I’m still here, and as far as I know, I’m not going anywhere soon. I like this message board, even though I do post a lot less and rarely post anything remotely controversial. I just have neither the time nor energy to back it up, not once, not twice, but 15-20 times in any given thread.

BUT, a lot of people have already left and will never come back. Maybe I have some sympathy for April R because I shared a lot of her traits. I used to be overly flirty and look for validation in other people, but I grew out of it without ever hurting my SO. Now I am fully confident in myself and only look to validation from myself or my other half. So there is a chance she can grow out of it.

We’re vulnerable in our twenties, more perhaps than we care to admit. I didn’t really grow into myself until much later than the average Joe. In my case it was entirely due to my parents and them totally killing my self-esteem. That was something I had to build along the way, and it was a bumpy road.

However wrong she is - and I’m not denying that I was wrong and that she is wrong - a bunch of people on the message board are probably not going to change her mind. What changed me was finding value in myself first and foremost. You know, “I don’t need X guy’s attention, I am great all by myself.” April R will also have to find value in herself first and foremost.

As for the arguing and the fighting, I find that the more people argue with me, the politer I try to get, with a few exceptions. (I hate when people imply I am lying, for example). I see no reason to lose my temper just because everyone else is!

Anyway. As I said before. Yell at her. Bitch at her. Scream at her. But I ask respectfully, don’t try to shut her up. Let her talk. All of us make this message board the varied thing it is!

[bucketybuck]

@Anaamika

However wrong she is - and I’m not denying that I was wrong and that she is wrong - a bunch of people on the message board are probably not going to change her mind.

Its all a happy farce though, April has no interest whatsoever in changing her mind, this is all just another part of the attention whores handbook and she is loving every minute.

Nobody is keeping any of these threads going more than the mormon moron herself, its April that is dropping little “woe is me” posts into other random threads to remind everybody that she is this weeks drama queen.

There is no point getting all sanctimonious about the nasty people shutting her up, they are reacting as they do because its blindingly clear that this is all just an episode in the “look at me” dream of AprilR. Does this guy friend even exist? Probably not, and if he does he probably has no idea this crazy bint is cuckolding her husband over him.

[Anaamika]

@bucketybuck

There is no point getting all sanctimonious about the nasty people shutting her up,

Oh my goodness. I retain the right to be sanctimonious if I want to! You are not wrong, that she is enjoying the attention. But the people yelling at her are having fun, too. So she is having fun, and they are having fun, and I am having fun, so why stop it all! Let’s all enjoy!

ETA: Anyway we are all attention whores. Every single human is an attention whore to some degree. And you know what? That’s perfectly OK!

[TokyoBayer]

@raspberry_hunter

It’s so funny you say this! Not-overly-pious-but-Relief-Society-teacher me would like to point out that probably this month, coming to a ward near you (April, that is) will be a Relief Society lesson on chastity! Direct quote from the lesson:

@Ezra Taft Benson

Men and women who are married sometimes flirt and tease with members of the opposite sex. So-called harmless meetings are arranged, or inordinate amounts of time are spent together. In all of these cases, people rationalize by saying that these are natural expressions of friendship. But what may appear to be harmless teasing or simply having a little fun with someone of the opposite sex can easily lead to more serious involvement and eventual infidelity.

Hi raspberry, or should i call you Sister Hunter?

I have a question about the Mormon aspect of this. I grew up in a really hard-core Mormon household, which was highly dysfunctional, where there wasn’t any discussion of reasons for right and wrong outside of quoting prophets and scripture. The entire focus was on the letter of the law and not on the spirit.

Anyway, what bothered me about the quote you provided is that the entire focus on this lesson is chastity and this little bit is simply something to remind people to not get into danger of going down a path which leads to committing adultery. There’s nothing about the damage which an emotional affair can cause, probably because Mormonism is so completely concerned with sexual sins, placing them second in seriousness only to murder.

The lesson quotes ETB about the “evils” of porn but fortunately skips the homophobic harangue in the original speach. In that speech, he goes on to say

If you are married, avoid being alone with members of the opposite sex whenever possible. Many of the tragedies of immorality begin when a man and woman are alone in the office or at church or driving in a car. At first there may be no intent or even thought of sin. But the circumstances provide a fertile seedbed for temptation. One thing leads to another, and very quickly tragedy may result. It is so much easier to avoid such circumstances from the start so that temptation gets no chance for nourishment.

This is what I don’t get about Mormonism. The focus is on the wrong place. It’s overly concerned about sex and less about developing a moral stance on one’s own. I can see someone in April’s shoes listening to that lesson and saying she’s good with it, that it’s not a problem. Certainly ETB didn’t envision the days of the Internet, and his audience wouldn’t either, so he didn’t warn people of online time, but again, it’s all about the “sin” of immodesty.

I’m just saying. (I’m actually not really directing this towards AprilR. I’ve said my piece to her, both in terms of my own life experience as someone who made these kinds of excuses to myself and in terms of our shared Mormon religion, and I’m done. But folks, this is what we’re going to be getting at church, probably in the next couple of weeks – in my ward, Sunday after next; her ward may be off by anything from a week to a month.)

Unfortunately, by the time a person has heard that bit they’re already going to be asleep from the billionth repetition of of the dangers of wearing sleeveless dresses. The message isn’t going to get across any better than the abstinence only sex ed.

@Anaamika

Well, thank you to all the people who have backed me up. I’m still here, and as far as I know, I’m not going anywhere soon. I like this message board, even though I do post a lot less and rarely post anything remotely controversial. I just have neither the time nor energy to back it up, not once, not twice, but 15-20 times in any given thread.

BUT, a lot of people have already left and will never come back. Maybe I have some sympathy for April R because I shared a lot of her traits. I used to be overly flirty and look for validation in other people, but I grew out of it without ever hurting my SO. Now I am fully confident in myself and only look to validation from myself or my other half. So there is a chance she can grow out of it.

We’re vulnerable in our twenties, more perhaps than we care to admit. I didn’t really grow into myself until much later than the average Joe. In my case it was entirely due to my parents and them totally killing my self-esteem. That was something I had to build along the way, and it was a bumpy road.

However wrong she is - and I’m not denying that I was wrong and that she is wrong - a bunch of people on the message board are probably not going to change her mind. What changed me was finding value in myself first and foremost. You know, “I don’t need X guy’s attention, I am great all by myself.” April R will also have to find value in herself first and foremost.

I can completely relate. I’ve done worse.

Stick around! We like you!

[raspberry_hunter]

Hi TokyoBayer! I think we’ve discussed Mormonism on the board before, but that was probably years ago (I took a break from the board for a while).

I’m not totally sure what your question was, but here, have some random thoughts.

@TokyoBayer

Anyway, what bothered me about the quote you provided is that the entire focus on this lesson is chastity and this little bit is simply something to remind people to not get into danger of going down a path which leads to committing adultery. There’s nothing about the damage which an emotional affair can cause, probably because Mormonism is so completely concerned with sexual sins, placing them second in seriousness only to murder.

This is what I don’t get about Mormonism. The focus is on the wrong place. It’s overly concerned about sex and less about developing a moral stance on one’s own. I can see someone in April’s shoes listening to that lesson and saying she’s good with it, that it’s not a problem. Certainly ETB didn’t envision the days of the Internet, and his audience wouldn’t either, so he didn’t warn people of online time, but again, it’s all about the “sin” of immodesty.

Although, I mean, “danger of going down a path” has also been a major theme of the thread. I would put my “danger point” at a different place than ETB – as I said in the original thread, I spend all kinds of time alone with Men Other Than My Husband, including entire business trips, including being in a room with the door closed at work with Other Men – but I do have well-delineated thresholds over which I know I can’t go for my own sake. These are thresholds I’ve thought about and I know I have good personal reasons that they are only things I can do with my husband. Some of them aren’t sexual at all: if I started calling another man by a schmoopy pet name, that would be crossing a far, far greater boundary for me than being in a room alone with him for hours doing technical work.

That being said, yeah, you’re absolutely right. Mormonism does tend to be about the letter of the law and it can be frustrating. Though I am blessed to live in, well, California, and my ward is made up of a bunch of very different people with different viewpoints – in RS in particular we get all of the Inflexible Party Line and the “let’s think about what the spirit of this means” and “Maybe we should judge ourselves rather than others.” (I get the sense the men are rather more inflexible. There’s one Gospel Doctrine teacher whose lessons I skip because I can’t stand it.) I would be shocked if, even if I wasn’t teaching it, emotional infidelity didn’t come up during the discussion to this lesson. (I mean, they called me, a non-endowed, non-married-to-a-Mormon, working-mom, knows-stuff-about-early-Church-history, feminist agnostic Mormon to be a RS teacher, so… either someone had inspiration or was deluded, depending on your point of view. Although they probably didn’t know about the feminist part. I think they should have been able to read between the lines for the agnostic bit, though.)

So – I forget where April lives. If she lives in Utah, yeah, the lesson might not be of much use.

In any case, what I’m not seeing here is either thoughtfulness about developing a moral stance or adherence to the letter of the law. That being said, obviously I was not very thoughtful about this earlier in my life, so I’m not judging! Just wishing I could keep other people from making my mistakes, but of course I have no power to do that. And, Anaamika, it’s great to know you grew out of it without hurting anyone in the process (go you!). I’m probably super projecting from my experience, so it’s nice to hear about someone who had a more positive one.

[Frylock]

@OneCentStamp

Not a chance, bucketybuck. Polyamory is for the unattractive.

Ah well damn I had had half an idea based on the thread in the OP’s link (which I only read the first several pages of to be sure) that she and husband might do well to think about the possibility of an open marriage. Never mind!

[Morgenstern]

@raspberry_hunter

Hi TokyoBayer! I think we’ve discussed Mormonism on the board before, but that was probably years ago (I took a break from the board for a while).

I’m not totally sure what your question was, but here, have some random thoughts.
…

raspberry…
Tokyo Bayer is the board’s village idiot when it comes to anything Mormon. He frequently pretends he’s the only living authority on the church and all things church oriented. In reality, his head and body are in different time zones, if you catch my drift.

Just let him rant and otherwise give it all the attention it deserves.

[TokyoBayer]

@raspberry_hunter

Hi TokyoBayer! I think we’ve discussed Mormonism on the board before, but that was probably years ago (I took a break from the board for a while).

Yeah, I think so. I seem to remember that you were pretty laid back, which is the reason I asked you.

Some of them aren’t sexual at all: if I started calling another man by a schmoopy pet name, that would be crossing a far, far greater boundary for me than being in a room alone with him for hours doing technical work.

This is the problem which I see, that by concentrating so heavily on certain arbitrary things such as not being alone with someone, it doesn’t help people to develop their own personal personal boundaries.

@Morgenstern

raspberry…
He frequently pretends he’s the only living authority on the church and all things church oriented.

I post from my experience and knowledge. You are more than welcome to disagree in any of the threads that it comes up.

[wonky]

I’m not surprised that AprilR had a completely different attitude and set of beliefs three years ago. Frankly, getting consistency from minute to minute is getting a bit dicey.

[April_R]

I am currently seeking treatment for this situation. I’m not going to self diagnose, but all of this, along with some other aberrant behaviors I’ve been displaying as of late, have led me into a state of mind I am not happy with.

After this thread was posted, I started having suicidal thoughts. This isn’t the first time I’ve had those thoughts or acted on them, and I’m not blaming anyone for my own thoughts, but I’ve read this thread dozens of times and my self loathing just gets worse. My husband has noticed a severe change in my demeanor and personality and he is trying to be supportive, but he is going through his own issues with a damaged knee and trying to advance in his career, so he is too stressed to worry about me.

I am hoping that seeking help will recenter my metal health, and I can be a better wife and mother. I am ashamed, sick, and feel like I am dying inside.

I know apologizing for my recent behavior on this board probably isn’t going to mean anything to anyone, but I wanted to make one last update before I leave. I don’t think my presence on here is productive anymore and I’m sorry for any hurt or distress I may have caused anyone by my behavior.

[wonky]

I hope you get the help you need. I don’t think you have harmed anyone here, or done anything to be truly ashamed of here.

[raventhief]

Yes, do get help. I think you are a valuable member here on the boards and you would be missed if you left entirely. The fact that you are seeking help is encouraging. Believe it or not, i personally very much want you healthy and happy.

Emotional issues are a terrible bear to tangle with; my sincere wishes for solace and relief right now.