In case anyone wants to challenge me on the above statistic, I am quoting my wife. Apparently she has done some extensive research over the past 12 years and has discovered the numbers to be accurate. If you take issue with this number please address your concerns with her.
Now, the topic of convesation last night was about the recent attacks on women in central park. This was the first time we saw the news coverage about this unfortunate event (just returned from a vacation) and we were both appalled. I said something like - “I cannot comprehend what went through the minds of these men that made the attacks seem like reasonable actions to them. I’m glad that they are merely the 0.01 percentile of the male population.” My beautiful and understanding wife looked at me with disbelief as if I had just fallen off the the idiot truck. Immediately my mind raced to retrace the steps of the conversation but like most men… nope… once uttered, the words were gone. I had about as much chance of recovering as Janet Reno being in the People magazine’s 50 most beautiful people issue.
To make a long story short (for christ sake, I can’t remember what I said, how could I possibly quote my wife’s retort?!), she recounted over a dozen incidents which took place in her late teens and through her 20’s about being touched of fondled by strange men while making her way to work and home on the subway or bus. Most incident happened in crowded trains or buses during rush hour and ranged from her thigh or ass being stroked to having her skirt lifted up on an escalator and her ass and breasts being grabbed on crowded trains. Not to mention incidents men standing far closer than absolutely necessary and making rude or lude comments and propositions. In most cases of physical contact she could not even identify the assailant let alone retaliate. It happened on such a regular basis (once a week almost) that she is convinced that the number of depraved men who do this kind of thing on a regular basis comprises about 50% of the male population and not the 0.01% which I had previously estimated.
Now, as my wife is not given to exageration (except when she speaks about my love making skills to her girlfriends - bless her heart!) so I am tempted to take her at her word that 50% of the men at large are complete animals. Now, I’m interested in what say the teaming millions? Can anyone corroborate this phenomenon?
It depends on your opperational definition of swine:
It sound like your wife could be focusing in on three possible phenomonon:
1.) Antisocial Personality Disorder
2.) Frotterism
3.) General male pain-in-the-assness
1.) Anti-Social Personality Disorder is that personality style that makes some individuals prone to abusing the rights of others. ASPD (also known as psychopaths or sociopaths) include rapists, murderers, many other criminals, as well as a fair number of police officers (I kid you not) lawyers, business men and even college professors (as a community college prof myself I throw this to be fair to the other professions). This is found in 4% of men and 1% of women (from DSM-IV)
2.) Frotterism is a sexual paraphilia in which individuals (usually men) will engage in rubbing, fondling, or caressing of a non-consensual individual (usually female). The incidence rate of this is (obviously) kinda fuzzy, but probably not much higher than ASPD.
The thing with these two disorders is that, though only a fraction of men (given overlap perhaps 6% total) have these traits, when you observe them they are so striking that you tend to ignore the other 94%. Cognitive theory states that we only notice those things we pay attention to, and we usually only pay attention to those things which are strikingly different. So it may seem like 50% to your wife, because she is ignoring the majority of men who do not engage in these behaviors. Over the course of ten years (which I think your wife said) even the behavior of a few men can seem to add up (how many millions of men might your wife have crossed paths with over that time…yet only a handful engaged in exploitive behavior) Now ideally, NONE of this would have happened to your wife, but then again, then I would be out of a career. I can assure you that the majority of men do not engage in any form of sexual victimization.
3.) By this I am referring to general male jerkiness…saying I love you when you don’t mean it. cheating on the wife, that sort of thing. THIS I would say is probably around 50%. Makes the rest of us look bad.
Once again the most brilliant poster on the SDMB has spoken again. Hi Avalon, you really are becoming a god, to me anyway.
I too would under most circumstances agree with Quicksilver’s wife, although just for sake of argument bump that figure up to 75%. I have come into close physical contact with all three contestants. Number one being the most dangerous and slimy of all. However I do honestly believe my hero when he says that both of our figures are very likely inflated due to a slightly skewed perception. It just certainly seems like 50% of the male population are swine. Perhaps it’s really only 25% and the other 25% are low down dirty dogs! Kidding, kidding, kidding what would we do without ya!?
Oh sure. I post a thought provoking and insightfull question and some guy with a degree and research material to back him gets all the credit. Fine. Be like that.
…and how come Avalon’s got all that information so handy at his finger tips? Sounds awfully suspicious to me. Hey, Avalongod - ride the crowded subway much?
As a man, I think in all fairness, the third category “general male jerkiness” is really “general people jerkiness”. The older I get, the more I see women are “jerky” in their own way and that number rivals the number of jerky men.
I might be able to answer your question about Avalon since lately I’ve been hanging on his every word. I believe just from what I can read between the lines that the man has some kind of degree in psychology and might be a social worker, probation officer or therapist of some kind. I do know that he quotes the manual quite often. He also seems to have a better than average working knowlege of economics, politics, and several other “ics”. Not to mention that he has a memory like an elephant or he’s sitting there at his PC with a library of text books at his disposal.
And too his credit he will “stand corrected” when he makes a boo-boo. He also never seems to “look down his nose” at anyone who’s opinion might differ or even be way off the mark. So don’t be messing with the GOD!
Needs2know…he belongs to the other 50% of the population.
Apparently frotting is a big problem in Japan, especially on the subway, and is regarded as a national sport.
There have been initiatives to stamp this out but, as seems common with the Japanese, their answer is either to try and ignore it for fear of humiliation ,or worse, blame the victim.
The problem has only begun to be regarded more seriously, and I use that phrase in a very mild way, when several women on the Tokyo subway had coats serrupticously slashed with knives to allow unwelcome hands through.
Many women are so resigned to it they do not complain and there is even an “agency” which caters for such perverts.
Naturally Japan denies the existance of this trade much like it fails to take responsability for many things.
Any woman visiting Italy or Argentina will be unfortunately familiar with the experience.
I cannot comment on British attitudes but would be surprised if it was commonplace here given our legendary reserve but as a bloke you might well get your face punched in on a major soccer match day!
Apparently frotting is a big problem in Japan, especially on the subway, and is regarded as a national sport.
There have been initiatives to stamp this out but, as seems common with the Japanese, their answer is either to try and ignore it for fear of humiliation ,or worse, blame the victim.
The problem has only begun to be regarded more seriously, and I use that phrase in a very mild way, when several women on the Tokyo subway had coats serrupticously slashed with knives to allow unwelcome hands through.
Many women are so resigned to it they do not complain and there is even an “agency” which caters for such perverts.
Naturally Japan denies the existance of this trade much like it fails to take responsability for many things.
Any woman visiting Italy or Argentina will be unfortunately familiar with the experience.
I cannot comment on British attitudes but would be surprised if it was commonplace here given our legendary reserve but as a bloke you might well get your face punched in on a major soccer match day!
right, 50%, but not me! so all you chichos out there, look me up!
So, what, are the percentages higher or lower for homosexual men? If I had a dime for every gay man who came on to me and wouldn’t take no for an answer until the dozenth time I had to say it, I’d have at least a buck twenty.
I find even those numbers high. Scratch that. I’ve seen enough of Avalon’s posts to trust those numbers (not to mention a cite is provided).
I guess what I’m trying to say is I find those number SCARY!
I live and work in Chicago. I easily pass several hundred people nearly everyday. 4% are psychopaths? That means (at a rough guess) that a physically walk or stand within touching distance of at least 12 psycho/sociopaths at least five days a week! That’s 60 per week or 3,120 per year! Say that only 1% of those 4% are genuinely dangerous that makes for brushing shoulders with up to 31 murderers/rapists/what-have-you every year!
If I’m not at a client site for work I usually take the El (mass transit train). That might have 75 people per car making those numbers jump even further AND I’m locked inside with those people!
With a little street savvy I’ve generally always felt safe in the city. Now I’m not so sure…
Marry me! Lol, my “credentials” are a MS in psyche and working on the PhD in clinical psyche. I don’t claim to have expertise in any other subject matter, actually even in psyche I recently flubbed a comment regarding the ability of neurons to reproduce (some can! who knew?)
casdave:
I have heard that as well. OF course the Japanese are suspected of having a few sociological "issues with females" in general.
Jeff42:
quote:
~~~I find even those numbers high
Well keep in mind that the working definition of psychopath (or ASPD if you prefer) is not that of a criminal. Many, perhaps most psychopaths find perfectly legal outlets for their personality traits. Have you ever come across:
1.) A police officer who seemed a little overexuberant about the use of physical force?
2.) A lawyer who would ruin lives or chase ambulances without a thought?
3.) A doctor who saw his patients as bags of meat with $ signs?
4.) A businessman who sold faulty products without concern for lives lost (think big tobacco)
5.) A college professor who seemed to delight in making students fail?
Criminals very often are psychopaths, but not all psychopaths are criminals. Anyone who will violate the rights and well being of others without feelings of remorse on a consistent daily basis qualifies (though I am simplifying a bit). I don't know if this makes you feel better or worse. Usually though so long as you don't stand in the way of a psychopath's desired goal, they won't bother you. But if you do....
<thunder, lightning>
Avalon…yesterday I was being morbid and grizzly again and went into http://www.crimelibrary.com. Best place on the net to get the scoop on serial killers globally. In the What’s New section or something like that they had a nice lengthy article on Childhood Psychopathy. Lots of mention of different studies, a couple of new scales that I hadn’t heard about. And a change in the diagnostic technique that used to rely on behavior alone. The article was condensed of course but good enough since I could never wade through an actual study. Thought you might want to check it out and see if there was anything new it mentions that you’d like to look into further.
Are you asking whether 50% of all men are swine, or whether 50% of every man is a swine? I’m not sure I could argue against either assertion (my wife has trained me well, too).
Some women at work were talking about the NY incident so I had to tell them this story.
The folowing is true. I promise.
When I was in junior high (1982) the exact same thing happened. Abunch of boys (approx 35-40) on the playground a recess started grabbing girls, carrying them off to the bushes, and feeling them up, tearing off their clothes, shoving their hands where they didn’t belong, etc…
All of this was in full view of the teacher, who was also knocked to the ground by the gang of boys. After recess some of the girls were crying and they went to the pricipal office to complain. About 2 or 3 of the boys were suspended because they were the “ringleaders.” Non of the other boys were diciplined in any way. Shocking.
I don’t think it’s that shocking, not anymore. Basketball fans rioted the other night after the Lakers game. I don’t know if they still use the term but didn’t they used to call this kind of behavior “pack mentality”. I won’t go so far as to say that this is strickly a male behavior because I’m not sure, but maybe someone else knows. Where’s our psychology professor? Avalon…where are you? What about “pack mentality” or whatever you might call it, is it a valid point? Is it a predominately male behavior?
Hold on a second, I think we all need to look at the numbers here before we accept %50. (Before I start, let me make it perfectly clear that I am not condoning this behavior, but as a male I feel personally slighted every time I hear someone claiming some ridiculous “statistic” which proves that men are scum.)
First of all:
Let’s call it 20 incidences. 20 spread out over, let’s say 5 years (when she was 19 through 24). This hardly meshes with the later claim of these things happening once a week. This is an unpleasant thing to have happen, and a natural reaction is to exaggerate the claim to make it sound more serious than it actually is. So what’s the actual number?
Okay, so lets take the ‘once a week’ number anyway and look at the situation: she rides the bus or subway 10 times a week (to and from work 5 days a week). Let’s assume that the average ‘crowded’ train or bus hold about 30 to 40 people – call it 35. About half of those are going to be men, so there are 17 or 18 men on the train or bus with her on each ride. 10 rides a week means that she comes in contact with 170 or 180 men – and ONE of them groped her. One out of 170 is NOT %50.
Now, I agree that this is unacceptable behavior and no one should have to put up with it. I think that men who do that kind of thing should have some sense beaten into them by all the decent guys. However, people who claim that a huge percentage of men are just dirty s.o.bs because of a few incidences like this are overreacting and stereotyping half of our society, based on the actions of a few individuals.
I can assure you that the majority of men do not engage in any form of sexual victimization.
