In your opinion, should people who would not want to date a transgendered person tell every prospective date that they don’t want to date a transgendered person? Or is the burden on the transgendered person to say they are transgendered? Either on the 10th date (as you prefer) or immediately (as I think candor demands).
Here’s the thing - I keep sensing a bit of “panic” about finding out one’s dating partner is transgender. This absolute horror that that fact might be revealed.
Me, I like men and while I don’t think I’d be interested/attracted to a transman, if I was dating someone and they revealed that fact about himself I might end the relationship but I would do so in a kind manner. Just like I’ve turned down lesbians who have expressed interest in me as a romantic partner. Something along the lines of “My sexual leanings don’t lean in that direction, I don’t think this is an obstacle I can overcome”. And I would do so calmly, as kindly as I can, and I would never, ever pass such information on to other people, I would keep it as a confidence. Other dealbreakers for me are being super-religious and into BDSM - both of those are turn-offs for me. But I don’t expect a laundry list of such things prior to a first date. It’s a date, not a job interview. I have also had to be explicit about not having sex on the first date - I don’t do that, I wouldn’t be comfortable with that, and I want the other party to understand that up front to prevent misunderstandings. There are plenty of people willing to do that, if that’s what the other party really wants they should know they should look elsewhere.
On the other hand, it is possible that I might find I can overcome the barrier of someone being transgender, even if I would never explicitly seek out someone transgender to date. It’s probably more likely I’d date a transman than I’d date/become intimate with a woman, whether she’s cis or trans, because I’m really slammed to the hetero side of the Kinsey scale. Intersex people - again, I don’t know. But if someone I was dating divulged that to me I really, really hope my first reaction is NOT screaming and running away into the night. Then again, I’ve also been known to engage in a long-term relationship with someone disabled/with multiple medical problems so maybe I’m just an outlier in not having sharply defined limits to what I consider “acceptable” even if I have some strong preferences. I’m willing to at least consider exceptions.
In any case, I don’t expect to know everything up front about a new dating partner, and if I find something I find a dealbreaker I can withdraw in a gentle manner rather than screaming “EW! ICK! CRAWLING HORROR!” I’ve dated a lot of people I’ve found incompatible after either one date or a few dates. It is, in fact, part of dating.
It is statistically unlikely that a cisman is going to randomly find himself dating a transwoman (or transman, for that matter, for men who like men) because the transgender are such a small portion of the population at large. So why are you in such fear of this? If this is something that keeps you up at night then YES, YOU need to be explicit about this. Frankly, I don’t think transgender people want to date people who object so strongly to them and would prefer to be warned up front that this is a VERY bad thing from your viewpoint. You’d be doing both yourself and other people a favor by being explicit about your dealbreakers.
Another thing - I don’t think I’d want to date someone anti-trans at this point, either. I know and care about too many transgender people now, they matter to me. I don’t want to have to pick and choose my friends and associates based on what someone else considers acceptable. I consider Una a friend even if we have never met face to face, not the least of which because even while spending so much time and energy on her own community she had enough kindness left over to help my household during hard times. I don’t know if she even remembers all the kindnesses she gave us, they weren’t huge, except that we were very low and felt very alone so any kindness at all was a blessing. If you describe someone such as Una as “crazy” or “deluded” or “perverted” then all I can say is we desperately need more such crazy, deluded perverts in this sorry world to make it a better place. If you can’t accept Una then I can’t accept you. If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don’t want to “waste” your time/dating on someone trans, I don’t want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman’s time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
“I wouldn’t want to date someone who’s transgender,” and “Transgender people are morally obligated to disclose their status, regardless of any potential threat that might entail,” are two different viewpoints. Don’t confuse support for the reasonable former, with support for the monsterous latter.
You think someone who doesn’t want to waste time dating someone that they are never going to have sex with “virulently anti-trans”??
Yes.
First of all, I don’t think dating must always lead to sex - sometimes it lead to finding the other person is not compatible BEFORE you have sex.
If you’re OK with live-and-let-live regarding transgender people even if you don’t care to date them or have sex with them that’s one thing, but I’m getting more than that from you. You sound like you want to be completely insulated from them at all times, and I find that… distasteful.
Because I don’t have casual sex and tend to have 1-2 year relationships as my short term relationships FOR ME it’s about more than just the sexual compatibility. I don’t want to date virulent racists, either, because I have friends and associates of all races. I don’t want to date sexist pricks because I’m a woman who values the notion of sexual equality. I don’t want to date people who find the disabled repugnant because I deeply loved someone disabled. I don’t want to date homophobes because of all the homosexual, bisexual, and [fill in the blank]sexual people I care about. I’m not giving up everyone else I know to satisfy your prejudices. I don’t need to date that badly, and I certainly don’t need sexual intercourse that badly, that I’d trade everyone else in my life for it.
Seriously, what’s the big deal here? You’re on a date, the possibility of intimacy comes up, and the other party says “I think you should know, I’m transgender”. Oh horrors. What if they said “I’m HIV+” or “I have a colostomy bag we’ll need to work around” or “I’m prone to seizures and if I have one during sex here’s what you need to do and not do”. These are all things that I think are private, but should be disclosed prior to actual intimacy/sex. I’m OK with that being disclosed prior to that intimacy/sex, but not prior to the first date.
If you are actually heterosexual and you respond sexually to a transwoman that doesn’t mean you’re gay, it means she’s woman enough to come across as a woman to your libido. If you DO have gay impulses, then for Og’s sake learn to deal with them - it’s nothing unusual to find yourself occasionally attracted to a member of the same sex and if you do then you can either act on it or not as you choose, but YOUR sexual responses are not the other person’s fault.
Well, thanks for answering, although you are completely wrong.
I have never said anything but this. The same as I do for all people regardless of gender, race, sex, creed, nationality, orientation, or whatever. Except Redskins fan.
I would surmise you get that because I don’t agree with you. Your opinion is the best possible opinion ever, and if I don’t agree, then I must be against it. The same as several other topics on this board.
Good for you. Did you ever think that other people, most notably men, may actually have sexual compatibility in mind when going on dates?
It’s not a big deal. If I’m just going to be hanging out, I don’t care what you are. If I have time, and I know it’s just going to be hanging out, that’s cool. I don’t care if someone is transgender or whatever. Just don’t be a moron. Dating, for purposes of possibly having sex, is a different story. As I stated above, I can make my “Look pretty, have a vagina, don’t be a moron” requirements made known up front. Although I suspect you would still consider that “anti-trans” for some reason.
This made me laugh. Thanks!
Do you think I hate and despise transgender people because I think they should be upfront about being transgender? I don’t hate transgender folks. I doubt I will ever date anyone (transgender or otherwise) again in my life so this is not some personal concern of mine.
This whole thing started because one of the complaints that Una mentioned was a transgender person who was depressed because they didn’t second dates because their date didn’t know that they were transgender before the date. Just statistically, about 20% of those people should have been OK with dating someone that was transgender but they weren’t. Perhaps the transgender person was selecting people that were more likely to be in the “I won’t date transgender” group or perhaps the dishonesty turned them off.
And as you say, it is statistically unlikely that a non-transgender man is going to ever date a transgender woman so they don’t even think about it. Its not anywhere close tot he front of their mind. But the transgender woman knows that its a material fact and withholds that information.
When did Bill Clinton go after a minor, or force himself on anyone? Did I miss that in Both Sides Do It 101 class?
And what does his wife have to do with any of it?
How’d that get in the wrong thread? Disregard.
NVM
There’s a youtube troll who states trans are as deluded as a black man wanting to be white, I don’t totally disagree with him. But anyone with enough courage to go through a complicated, dangerous and painful surgical procedure deserves kudos. Not only that but one look at my screen name will tell you that I’m the last person who would ever criticize some for there sexual orientation.
I don’t think anyone in this thread has made an argument that all transgender folks are mentally ill or merely have some sort of kink. I try to imagine what it would take for me to want to undergo gender reassignment surgery. It would have to be a powerful impulse that could not be satisfied by any other means. I would literally have to believe that my life depended on it for me not to just try to fake my way through life focusing on other things like my career or try to become some sort of androgynous asexual cog in the machine.
I am very aware of that, which is why I am clear with people that I do not have sex on the first date, do not do casual sex, and so forth. This does, of course, limit my dating pool but I’m totally OK with that. I’m not looking for quantity. And if a quick move towards sex is why you are dating I’d appreciate knowing that up front. Seems that’s all part of proper communication, doesn’t it?
Er… quite a few transwomen actually do have vaginas. Maybe you should just say “I am not interested in a relationship with someone transgender” just like I say up front “I do not do casual sex or sex on the first date” in order to minimize ambiguity.
You’re welcome.
Sure does.
I’ve already agreed up thread that this would be the correct thing to do.
I think what we disagree about is when that revelation should occur. I don’t have a problem with it being delayed until intimacy is about to occur. Then again, if you’re into having sex on the first that will come up pretty quickly, unlike myself that likes to take a little more time to get to know a person, first.
There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn’t getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously. I’m sorry that’s the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it’s yet another reason for competent psychological counseling.
Like I said, I think our disagreement is about when this is made clear. What other medical items are you supposed to reveal before the first date? Colostomy bags? Infertility? Skin grafts?
:dubious: Emphasis added. So why are you letting the transgender-dating-averse men get away with the dishonesty of not being upfront about the fact that they don’t want to date transgender people?
As you and molten noted, a lot of transgender-dating-averse men don’t want to reveal that fact about themselves to potential dates because a lot of women will find it unappealing. But if they don’t want to be dishonest, according to you, they have to be upfront.
What you’ve got here, Damuri Ajashi, isn’t an ethical argument. It’s merely a retrofitted rationalization for pandering to the preferences of straight cisgender men at the expense of everybody else’s.
“I shouldn’t have to be upfront about my objections to dating transgender women, because that might get negative reactions from women in general. But transgender women should feel obligated to be upfront about their transgender status, and HIV+ women also should feel obligated to be upfront about their HIV+ status. There’s nothing wrong with my concealing the characteristics that other people probably wouldn’t like about me, but other people are being dishonest if they don’t immediately reveal the characteristics that I probably wouldn’t like about them.” :rolleyes:
Personally, I still prefer the far more straightforward and fair ethical approach that recognizes that it’s not dishonest for anybody to conceal personal information from potential dates, but if you do conceal a personal issue that’s very important to you for dating compatibility, you may sometimes find out you’ve been dating someone you’re not compatible with.
And if that happens, you don’t get to blame the other person for having concealed information from you while you were busy concealing from them the fact that you wanted to know it.
Why do you think a lot of women will find it unappealing?
Is your question about the “why”, or the “lot”? That is, are you asking me for (A) my opinion on why women feel that way, or (B) evidence supporting the assertion that a lot of women do feel that way?
If your question is (B), well, this wasn’t my assertion originally, it was molten’s:
And Damuri Ajashi seems to concur that this negative perception exists:
Which sits a little oddly with Damuri Ajashi’s simultaneous insistence that it’s so overwhelmingly normal and natural and nearly-universal for straight cisgender men to want to avoid any kind of dating activity whatsoever involving a transgender woman.
I would think that if strongly wanting to avoid any risk at all of going on even a first date with a woman who happens to be transgender is really such a typical attitude for such a vast majority of straight men, they wouldn’t be at all embarrassed or hesitant to admit it right up front.
If your question is (A), then I think Broomstick said it best:
Being so anxious to avoid any possible dating activity whatsoever with transgender women that you require them to pre-emptively announce their transgender status even without being asked about it does suggest the possibility of transphobia. As Miller put it,
You think **Broomstick **said it best when she states that not wanting to date someone who does not have the anatomy that you are seeking in a date is “virulently anti-trans”?
Maybe you could try addressing that sentence in the context of the post in which it appeared?