No, that’s not the part I quoted. I don’t think that the mere fact of being not being sexually attracted to a transgender person is “anti-trans” at all, much less “virulently” so.
But I do agree that a lot of straight cisgender women wouldn’t want to date a man who was virulently anti-trans. And I think that being super-averse to even the possibility of even starting to date a transgender woman, to the point where you insist that transgender women are obligated to announce their status pre-emptively to all potential dates without even being asked, can raise some red flags in the “anti-trans” category.
And was that one word the whole sum and total of her post, or did she write an additional five paragraphs of clarification and elaboration of her argument?
I agree. Just like I would agree that a lot of women wouldn’t want to date a raging racist, or an extreme homophobic.
Maybe. But I would guess that most guys who don’t want to date a transgender woman don’t want to because of anatomical differences which says nothing about gender or anything, but simply biology.
She did write additional paragraphs that include her telling me that I want to be completely insulated from transgender people and she finds that distasteful.
Then she states her casual sex preferences and what she excludes from her dating pool.
Then she asks what the big deal is being told that the person who you thought was a biological woman turns out to be not that.
Then some weird stuff that was so off base that it made me laugh.
So, is that what you mean by “clarification and elaboration”?
But I’m not saying anything negative about merely not wanting to date a transgender woman. Some men don’t object to it, some do. No ish.
What I said could raise some red flags was insistence on the importance of avoiding even the temporary and superficial appearance of possibly ever wanting to date a transgender woman. Especially when that takes the form of demanding that transgender women prominently and publicly label their status to make it easier to avoid dating them.
But it seems to me that you are trying to establish that men want to avoid the appearance of dating a transgender woman due to some stigma that the man may face for being on a date with a transgender woman because people might think he is gay or whatever. And I am saying that most men don’t want to go on a date with a transgender woman because she doesn’t conform to the biology that a man is looking for on a date.
Here’s one way to look at it:
Man: Yay! I have a date tonight with a hot chick I met on a dating site. If things go well, maybe I will have sex tonight!
After the date is almost over and she tells him she is transgender: Damn, why didn’t she say she was transgender beforehand, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.
It’s not:
Man: Yay! I have a date tonight with a hot chick I met on a dating site. If things go well, maybe I will have sex tonight!
After the date is almost over and she tells him she is transgender: OMG! Gross! I’m going to throw up because people might think I’m gay and that is gross!!
I’m not meaning this to be snarky, but educational.
The focus on the parts is part of the problem.
The surgeries are actually relatively easy. Relative to the potential loss of marriage, children, friends, relatives, community standing, church, housing, employment and career.
Please consider re-calibrating what about us seems like it would be most difficult. I won’t make light of the medical aspect of transition, I’ve had several surgeries. But…honestly, all the physical pain, the psychodrama, etc. around the medical part of transition, pales next to the familial, career, social, legal, and other aspects.
Ask yourself why surgery seems to be the most difficult part to imagine. Because I and all my kin would assure you, it’s really not.
I did not say that you, specifically, are “virulently anti-trans” but if I read in a profile that you will not date transgender people, period, then yes, I am going suspect there may be some sort of bias there. I kind of wonder about people who would say they would never ever date someone of a different ethnicity, too. I defend their right to choose the sexual partners they prefer, but that doesn’t meant I have to agree with their preferences.
I want to date people more open minded than that. That is my choice, just as it is your choice to NOT date transwomen. If you want me to respect your choices then you need to respect mine.
I am definitely concerned that you insist on transgender people having to announce that publicly and repeatedly when such admission can still carry very real physical risks. When people choose to divulge that should be up to them, just divulging homosexuality or interest in BDSM or polyamory should be left up to the individual, with the exception that they should divulge that before actual sex/intimacy takes place. If you aren’t intimate with them it’s none of your business.
There is also the fact that in your particular case it’s not just that you don’t want to date transwomen but some of the other statements you’ve made over time about transgender people that leads me to think you have some bias against them.
You wouldn’t think that I maybe wanted to date someone that I could have sex with? It’s automatically some sort of transgender bias?
I don’t insist on that actually. If you had actually read this thread, you would know that. I would put in my profile that I am looking for a gender-typical woman. I would expect that any transgender woman would not reply to my profile, thus I wouldn’t insist on anything. I try to avoid telling other people what to do, and this thread has convinced me that was exactly what I was doing, so I changed my view.
Yeah, you’ve said this before. And when I asked you to produce those statements you failed to do so. I expect you won’t be able to this time either. If you can produce one statement of mine, in context, that shows I have a bias against transgender people, I will apologize. If not, I suggest you retract your statement.
That is how you come across to me. In other words, it’s an opinion. If you feel that is an inaccurate view of you then you might ask why someone has that view of you. Or maybe you don’t care.
Well… yeah.
What is the big deal? If you met a woman and was sexually interested in her would you freak out if she said thanks, but no thanks, she’s a lesbian? Or asexual? Do you freak out if a gay man inquires if you are into men? OK, she’s not in the group you want to date, say thanks but no thanks, and get on with life.
Or do you make every woman you consider dating fill out a 4 page questionnaire to make sure they conform in all ways to your dating pool criteria? Part of dating is that sometimes it doesn’t work out. Does that waste your time? Well, no more than you are wasting the other person’s time.
I’ve yet to meet someone transgender who wants to live a lie (that’s sort of the whole point about transition, isn’t it?), they want to be with someone who will accept that they are transgender. They don’t want to waste THEIR time dating YOU.
The more up front YOU are the more up front other people will be. Why does everyone else have to guess what you’re assumptions are while you demand to know all sorts of things about them? Why doesn’t it cut both ways?
I think at least part of the problem is that my viewpoint is so far from yours that you have trouble wrapping your head around it.
I care in the sense that I would like to see why you think that based on nothing but your own personal biases. That’s interesting to me. Since I’m not what you think, why you think that is interesting.
I wouldn’t “freak out” for any of those scenarios. Not sure why you would think that. I’d rather say “no thanks” and get on with life before I wasted hours on a date, that’s all.
That’s great. I’m in perfect agreement.
I think you have preconceived notions about how people act when faced with certain scenarios and cannot cope when you talk with someone who doesn’t fit your notions.
As proof, I ask you to find anything I have stated that leads you to believe that I have a bias against transgender people. I almost guarantee that you can’t find any. But you will continue to think it based on nothing but your own incorrect feelings.
Physically you could have sex with a transwoman. Post surgery you probably wouldn’t be able to tell the difference unless she’s one of the unfortunates who can’t pass at all, but then, if that was the case you’d know right from the start and probably cancel the date before it happened.
You choose not to have sex with transwomen. That is entirely your right. But don’t pretend it’s because they are somehow physically incompatible. After bottom surgery transwomen have vaginas. After top surgery they have breasts. A lot of them exert a lot of effort to look as feminine as possible. You don’t like the fact that in the past those women used to have a penis and presented as men. I base that on your continued focus on “anatomy”. You find it a turn off. I get it. No one is saying that you are wrong to have that preference.
I wouldn’t reply to your profile either, because when I read that you want “gender typical women” you want someone conforming to female stereotypes, a girly-girl, which I most assuredly am not even if I am heterosexual and cisgender. Which probably isn’t a problem as I’m pretty sure neither of wants to date the other for reasons other than anatomy, sexual orientation, and trans/cis status. We disagree on a lot of stuff on a regular basis.
By saying “gender typical”, though, you’re excluding people other than transwomen. Maybe you don’t realize that. Maybe you don’t care. That’s why some of us are saying that your wording might not be ideal for the effect you want.
Well, the fact you say absolutely never to an intimate relationship with one does reveal a bias. As I have said repeatedly, you have every right to be picky about who you have sex with. Maybe you’re open to being friends with a transwoman but all you keep coming back to in this thread is sex, sex, and the possibility of sex. I don’t know - are you comfortable having transgender friends/co-workers/neighbors?
FWIW, I agree with a lot of what Broomstick said. (And Una, I hope consider me a friend as well.)
Where did I say they were? No, my own personal view is that people are attracted to what they’re attracted to. Just don’t be a dick about it. (Like don’t say something like, “Eeew, you’re a tranny? Gross!” Or whatever.)
So what term DO you mean? Because the phrase to mean opposite of trans, as in someone born who identifies with the sex they were born with, is cisgender. Don’t like it, write to Websters. I agree it’s kind of an awkward sounding word, but what can you do?
Yes, technically use whatever word you want, but then you don’t have the right to bitch when people misunderstand you.
Dating is complicated enough .
Really? I can have vaginal sex with a pre-op transgender woman? I’d like you to explain how that is possible
(And I don’t know if saying pre-op is bad or good nowadays, I mean no offense by it)
Of course they are. I want to have vaginal sex with a woman.
I don’t like fake breasts, so that’s not a turn on for me. I would have no problem dating a transgender woman who had surgery. I’ve never done it, but I suspect there is some sort of difference. If not, then it’s all good.
I have in no way stated this. This is your own bias projecting what I think.
That’s okay. I know a lot of good people that I wouldn’t want to date.
Of course. I don’t know why you would think otherwise. I am comfortable having as friends/co-workers/neighbors anyone as long as they aren’t morons.
I can see saying “Damn, how disappointing, there’s an evening wasted” or something like that (if our friend Man does in fact feel that any date with a hot chick where he doesn’t end up having sex is nothing but a complete waste of time. Very romantic, can’t imagine why a guy like that is still single :p).
But it’s that “why didn’t she say she was transgender beforehand” that carries the weird air of entitlement.
If instead she revealed that she’s asexual, or piously intends to remain a virgin until marriage, would Man in that case also have said “Damn, why didn’t she tell me beforehand”?
It’s simply not a date’s responsibility to tell you beforehand any particular thing that you might find disappointing about her. Treating transgender status as a special case of something that your date ought to tell you about beforehand suggests that maybe you do perceive it as kind of gross.
Our buddy Man can’t have it both ways. If he says “Hey, I’m not transphobic, I’m just trying to avoid any dates that I can’t have sex with”, then he shouldn’t be putting transgender women in a special category of “potential dates who are morally obligated to warn me in advance about their particular reason that I might not consider them someone I can have sex with”.
(And btw, I’m not oblivious to the potential distorting influence on this whole issue of the persistent archaic and sexist social expectation that men will do the paying on dates. All dates between strangers should absodamnlutely be Dutch-treat; financially one-sided relationships should be either explicitly commercial transactions or voluntary mutual arrangements between people who know and trust each other. I don’t claim that the monetary burden on men in the dating world in any way justifies male sexism towards women, but it certainly doesn’t do anything to help it, and the same goes for male prejudices against transgender women in particular.)
Which, as I’ve said all along, I consider a perfectly reasonable and advisable thing to do if you don’t want to date transgender women. (However, I still think it would be clearer if you phrased it using terms like “cisgender” or “not transgender”. To me, “gender-typical” connotes “gender-conforming” more than “cisgender”, and suggests that what you’re trying to avoid is conventionally “unfeminine” women with short hair or Doc Martens or construction-site jobs or something like that, irrespective of their genital anatomy.)
Oh - now you clarify that with “pre-op”. Up until now you’ve been saying “transwoman” without that qualification.
As to sex with a pre-op transwoman… no, you couldn’t have penis-in-vagina sex with such a person but I assume you are experienced enough to know that there are more options for intimacy than just that. If you find those options distasteful, well, again, you have every right to decided what sort of sex/intimacy you choose to participate in.
If you said “no pre-op transwomen” you might then have some people assuming post-op transwomen are OK with you.
I suppose you could say “no sex or dating people with a penis”, which would be highly specific. “My favorite sex act is penis in vagina.” Whatever works, I suppose.
If a post-op transwoman is not a problem then it’s not them being a transwoman that’s a problem, it’s that you want them to be post rather than pre-op.
I’m told that if the surgery and transition is well done no, you can’t tell a difference, at least not without a fairly invasive examination, well beyond what a penis does during intercourse. I wouldn’t know myself, not being into women.
So maybe what you’re really saying is that you don’t want to date a transwoman who hasn’t had bottom surgery…?
I’ve never said that being a transwoman is the problem. It’s lack of expected anatomy that is the problem.
A transgender woman who has had bottom surgery and presents as an attractive woman is indistinguishable from a gender-typical woman. Why wouldn’t I date someone like that? Is that even a real question?
I can see saying “Damn, how disappointing, there’s an evening wasted” or something like that (if our friend Man does in fact feel that any date with a hot chick where he doesn’t end up having sex is nothing but a complete waste of time. Very romantic, can’t imagine why a guy like that is still single :p).